World cup 2027. Were do Ireland go?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247591#Comment_121247591

Why did the reserve 10 need a couple of years experience to be brought on for the final few minutes? This is the heart of the issue for me, Sexton was out on his feet and needed to be replaced by someone, anyone. It's not like we needed him on for a pressure kick to win, we needed to engineer a try and that wasn't going to happen with a static JS shovelling the ball on. We should have rolled the dice with Crowley, it may not have worked but it was worth a shot.

but instead we're inundated with comments about rotating more during 6N and discussions about squad depth.

The thread title is "Were do Ireland go". The literal answer is the next 6N and the theoretical answer is suggesting changes which could be made in our approach. The only way to build squad depth is to give more lads gametime, the fixtures in the next 6N mean it is perfect for that.

Beating France in Paris next February is a huge ask (and likely a bridge too far no matter what players we play) but after that, we have four games we should be winning, even with a few players who weren't involved last Saturday. That doesn't mean dumping half the squad but there are clear issues which need to be addressed and the sooner we start, the better.

We need a new 10 anyway and we should be actively looking for our next starting 9 (i.e. Casey starts some games, he might not be the answer long-term but JGP certainly isn't either). Furlong isn't right, I think he'd benefit from a break and our depth at TH would also benefit from it. Back row also needs refreshing, POM has given all he can. We aren't getting the best from Doris right now, he needs to play his way back into the starting jersey rather than be handed it regardless. Conan is better than most no.8s we'll face in the 6N and hopefully Doris will work on a few things and rediscover some form.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247591#Comment_121247591

Great piece but no way should Sexton have been left on the field for the full 80. Defending that decision is simply wrong. A forward would have been better than a flaked out Sexton. Farrell sat on his hands rather than take the decision to replace Sexton, that's on him, regardless of how much he brought on Crowley before that game.

Buer

There's absolutely no way in hell that Sexton was being taken off in that game. I think Crowley had something to contribute but you don't take off the guy who directs your play both on and off the ball. It was never going to be a consideration for that specific swap. There's a reason NZ didn't take either of their halfbacks off either and Christie and MacKenzie stayed on the sidelines. Or Lucu stayed on the bench the next night with Dupont going 80.

The fact that we went 37 phases and 40m downfield in those closing minutes suggests that we were actually doing ok. It was an absolute slog but that was always going to be the way, we weren't going to try any high risk play in those closing minutes. Prior to that, we'd got ourselves down to their line a few times in the final quarter so it's not like there was any issue with us creating scoring opportunities.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248432#Comment_121248432

There's absolutely no way in hell that Sexton was being taken off in that game

There in lies the problem , blind faith in a guy who was passed it with 10 mins left to win the game.

Worst case scenario, we didn't score with Crowley on the field and we're going home anyway. Best case, he adds something to our attack and we score a try.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248513#Comment_121248513

no one will ever win the world cup with a 38 year old out half as their primary choice in that position. It's unlikely any top four team will even have one in the squad.

Muck Savage 2020

Porter Sheehan Furlong

Joe Mc James Ryan (c)

Beirne Quinn Doris

Casey Crowley

Hansen Henshaw Ringrose Calvin Nash

Keenan

Subs: Ronan Kell Paddy McCarthy Scott Wilson Ahern Gleeson Doak Sam Prendergast JOB

Can see other players like Tom Stewart, Ronan Foxe, Edogbo, Niall Murray, Quinn, Gunne, King, Tommy O B, Postlethwaite be thereabouts. Dont see many outstanding outside backs coming through but could be wrong. Picked Nash because the team needs pace! Larmour could get back in but it seems his basics are not good enough.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248553#Comment_121248553

I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. The majority of your bench is uncapped; a few of them don't even have provincial caps yet.

Starting team probably isn't a million miles off although I doubt Beirne will move into the backrow as he gets older.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248551#Comment_121248551

We needed Sexton, he had to start, keeping him on for the 80 is my issue

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248513#Comment_121248513

It's a guy who is the fulcrum of the team and has delivered repeatedly up to and including recent games. It's the opposite of blind faith.

Wegians89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248553#Comment_121248553

On the outside backs, I would keep an eye on Kilgallen at Connacht. Physically he’s a special. 6ft 3 at least and rapid. He has a good try scoring record already and he has a great attitude to defence. Lots of improvements needed yet but one of the more exciting youngsters

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248551#Comment_121248551

Sexton has been in the top 5 10's at the world cup and on Saturday was still orchestrating play and hitting rucks right until the end.

Would Crowley have presented a bit more pace, yes, but could have have kept the team going forward for 38 phases at the end, not so sure, yet.

OldRio

The idea that we sacrifice a couple of six nations isnt going to happen. The IRFU depend on that money.

The World Cup is a once in a 4 year opportunity. To put all your eggs in that is ludicrous. Financially and physically.

I do agree that the full squad should be used more with players rotating in and out more. Jacovs put some interesting figures up in regard to minutes played by SA and Ireland.

Anyway. One loss in 17 matches shouldn't diminish how good this coaching and squad was/is.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248393#Comment_121248393

Yes it is on him. I think the decision was far more marginal than you do and it also not remotely uncommon in these scenarios. Sexton did actually help get us 40m up the pitch and I would argue that all of the players were so exhausted at that stage that pinpoint accuracy was also very important.

I haven't watched it back (and I'm not going to) but Sexton simply did not strike me as the problem in the final phase of play.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248999#Comment_121248999

There was one moment in that final play when Tadgh Beirne got the ball and the guy just looked absolutely done in. He definitely wasn't alone I just noticed it in particular with him. It was one hell of an effort. I started thinking that 2013 was going to be banished from our minds forever with the ultimate pay back..sadly it wasn't to be.

Kermit.de.frog

I remember being rounded on here for saying how knackered we looked in the last 20 minutes of the Scotland game despite the changes and allowing for the fact the game was over. We looked done. No one wanted to hear about it because of the result but the warning signs were there for me.

When you look at the final 38 phase possession against NZ we were clearly gone. No one could see us scoring. Certainly I couldn't.

We might have benefitted from a lot more rotation in some of the group games. I don't think our game management was good in hindsight.

Then there is the stupid unforced errors and our lineout only really working against Scotland and that's down to coaching at the end of the day.

The errors more than tiredness cost us but tiredness also told in the very end.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248664#Comment_121248664

And the same guy was dead on his feet before the final whistle, we've seen players having to stay in carrying an injury because all subs were used, we've seen forwards replace backs or vice versa again because the other subs were used but in Saturday we let a guy who wasn't able to continue to play on with a replacement on the bench, the dice was rolled but we lost on it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249124#Comment_121249124

Bringing Crowley on to a game is also a dice roll. You are using massive hindsight bias here.

Like, if you want to ascribe blame to the final phase of play (and I don't really) it was McCarthy's terrible clearout that was the problem.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249124#Comment_121249124

You're trying to establish a somewhat disingenuous narrative to justify a change that you personally wanted to see. Of course Sexton was "able to continue to play on" given he continued to play on.

For a guy who "wasn't able to continue to play on" it's incredible that he did just that, directing play through 37 phases and moving steadily down the field before a blown clear out lost possession.

I think Crowley could have added something in terms of attacking the line and a extra distributor in the backline. I'm just not sure who would be best to come off to introduce him. Everyone still on the field was a guy capable of a winning moment.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248947#Comment_121248947

Nobody is saying to sacrifice a couple of 6Ns. Next year we will beat Scotland, Wales and Italy in Dublin even with changes made in 4 or 5 positions. There's a good chance we'd beat England too but it being in Twickenham makes it a more even contest. In plenty of positions, our second choice is better than their first choice player, our guy just needs experience. We can bring in new guys and still have the bulk of the team who were world no.1 around them.

JS is gone regardless. POM may be available but there is nothing to be gained by flogging him further. Furlong who were once undroppable is no longer so and there is nothing to be lost from looking beyond him (I think a good rest to get himself right followed by regular gametime with Leinster rather than always being thrown cold into international games would be the best thing for him). JGP is too hit and miss and will be too old at the next WC. Changes have to be made, there's no escaping that fact.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248719#Comment_121248719

The top5 10s at the world cup...that's not saying much really. He's in the top half of out halves from countries that play Tier1 rugby.

thebaz

Im still flat after weekend - God knows how the players are , whilst I think Sexton should have been taken off for the last 15 for Crowley , I dont think we were ever going to score with that last phase, as a collective they were gassed.

Barrett stopping Kelleher was the moment for me .

Our back row was below par and got outplayed by ther opposites that to me was the main resson , all 3 have been great sevants of Irish rugby, but none were at ther best on Saturday

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248947#Comment_121248947

"The idea that we sacrifice a couple of six nations isn't going to happen. The IRFU depend on that money".

Would there be any meaningful financial hit for a couple of seasons of 3rd place finishes? The games would still be sellouts at any price-point the IRFU sets, the broadcast revenue would still be the same as it is set in stone regardless of performance, and I wouldn't expect any downturn in sponsorship money. These are the big revenue generators, stuff that brings in 10s/20s+ of millions.

All I can see is prizemoney, which by comparison is small beans (finishing 3rd as opposed to 1st is about €2.5M) and there may be incentive based arrangements with our own sponsors.

Some further analysis here (although not terribly clear whether some of the figures bandied about are yearly or over the full length of the contract)

Ian Mallon: How Six Nations rugby has swelled to a €4 billion business (irishexaminer.com)

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249405#Comment_121249405

What do you expect? That every single player we have is the best in the world in thier position.

That someone at 38 is in the top 5 in their position in the world is brilliant. And really who is better. Mo'unga, certainly. Pollard, from the foot yes, but not with ball in hand or game management. Jalibert - attacking wise yes, but he is a bit flaky. Flaky Finn - hell no, Farrell - purely off the tee, Biggar - that ship sailed years ago, Carreras - nope. So to be at the very top of the game at 38 is a hell of an achievement.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249437#Comment_121249437

The NZ trio had their performance of the season. Cane played very like VDF of 2022. He was just non-stop. And Savea looked like Savea of 2022. Another massive showing.

For Ireland, I was very disappointed with Doris. He was potentially our most disappointing performer for me given the heights he has reached. One publication said he had been Ireland's best player over the 17 game run but had his worst ever game in green against NZ. That's potentially harsh but I did find some truth in it. That knock on from the drop out was just the worst moment of the game for me. That's when I thought "We're not going to get this done now". We went from being held up on their try line to them having a scrum on halfway. Just an absolute game killer and was totally and utterly unforced. You see an error like that maybe once every three or four games for Ireland.

Doris is untouchable at 8 for Ireland really but I do think we need to take some of the reliance off him as the dedicated carrier. I don't think it was any coincidence that Conan was making yards for fun when he came on. Just gave a different option in different areas of the field. Might be something that someone like Gleeson can provide if he continues to develop over the next 2-3 years.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249522#Comment_121249522

Thanks for reminding me how much I hate the goal line dropout rule.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249522#Comment_121249522

You could see when the ball was coming for Doris that in his mind he was already looking to where he was going to hit the NZ defensive line. If you look at the replay there was a prop and a hooker directly in front of his line into that ball. I think he may have spotted an opportunity to break the line and got ahead of himself

Tommysocks11

Of course vdf and Doris were poor as they are the ones carrying, trying to poach and do the work of 3 as I think pom gets great work and credit in line out work but other than that we need more, a blindside flanker should be making hard yards and dominant tackles etc but Pete is too light for that I think, maybe beirne to 6 or baird eventually

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249574#Comment_121249574

POM's carrying and ruck work have been excellent at this world cup. He is going to be replaced though.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248947#Comment_121248947

Making a couple of changes really doesn't affect the 6nations. I suggest removing Healy and Kilcoyne. They're both 10 minute players anyway. Swap in Prendergast for POM. Give Casey a couple of starts. Nothing mad. Just freshen up the squad.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246957#Comment_121246957

I think in the short term Osbourne will be the natural replacement for Lowe at Leinster. Massive left boot, physical, excellent ball skills. Play him there until a center spot opens