Will Andy Farrell get the adoration Jack Charlton got?

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266806#Comment_121266806

Yes Ireland were one of the 4 favourites to win the whole thing. What side of the draw were those 4 favourites on?

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266958#Comment_121266958

Like I said the “bad side of the draw” argument holds no water when it comes to elite sport. New Zealand were there for the taking and Ireland bottled it.

If Ireland were the best they would have beat whoever was in front of them. Instead we got the usual heroic failure Irish making excuses “the draw was against us,” “the seeds” etc etc. Excuse after excuse for bottling it.

yagan

A week on and it's only here that anyone is still talking about it, whereas many still shudder when they here the name Saipan.

I think that says it all really.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266806#Comment_121266806

A 50/50 game. I feel awful anger off your posts here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121267237#Comment_121267237

Saipan was a big story\controversy. Apples and oranges. Sexton walking out on the team and calling Farrell an English cnut would be somewhat comparable! It's only in Cork they still get worked up about Saipan. Second great Irish man shot from behind the 'rebels' culture and so on.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121267597#Comment_121267597

I think the point I obviously failed to make is that Saipan still reverberates in a way that this rwc doesn't amongst bandwagoners like myself.

The protracted nature of the rwc has made it feel no different to the annual six nations.

The rwc really is the 6 nations + NZ, SA, and Oz (when they're in form) and few surprise appearances like Argentina.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121267660#Comment_121267660

This is a very poor RWC and will be forgotten about very soon after it is over.

In terms of Ireland, it wont live long in the memory either. 10th world cup in a row failing to win a knockout game.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121267670#Comment_121267670

Lots of things aren't remembered there's a whole generation under 25 who never remember Cork winning a senior hurling all ireland. Which is poor considering the size of the county and number of clubs. In contrast Irish rugby over achieves given numbers.

And people under 27 never remember Ireland playing in a World Cup in soccer.

I'll remember Ireland winning a Grand Slam in 2023 and being a joint 4th favourite in the World Cup, losing to the All Blacks by 4 points while not playing their best. 1987, 1991, 1995 etc were all years we had poor teams and lost quarter finals, they're not a stick to beat the current team with.

Nothing worse than knockers, after a defeat trying to get a dig in, and thinking they are being really subtle.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121267670#Comment_121267670

In terms of Ireland, it wont live long in the memory either.

It’ll be something of an albatross around their neck for the next one for sure, how they came to the 2023 World Cup fancying themselves as favourites and then fell at the exact same hurdle they always do.

I don’t see them making the semis for another 20 years after that.

This World Cup isn't poor, it's had a lot of outstanding games. It's as good as any other.

RIP Bobby Charlton.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121267670#Comment_121267670

How do you measure what’s a good RWC and a poor RWC ?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266806#Comment_121266806

Yeah weak side of the draw. look at world rankings prior to tournament and you can see how different each side of the draw was. we were on a much tougher side of the draw. its not a pathetic defence.

We were one of the best in the world on the rankings but we were just about n1 with multiple sides very close to us.

we were one of the 4 favourites and were knocked out by another one of the top sides in a 4 point defeat. that isnt bottling it. it isnt close to bottling it.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121268390#Comment_121268390

Dunno. The pool stages of this one really seemed to drag. 2 of the pools effectively finished on the first night.

Ireland were in the pool of death supposedly, but Scotland to the surprise of no one were utterly brutal.

My local is a good sporting pub, but there were a good few saturday nights where the 3 TVs had Soccer, Racing and GAA on each of them with the rugby pool games ignored.

But is it any worse than other RWCs, hard to know. Lot of Tier1 nations seem to be miles of the pace, more so than usual - Oz, Arg, Wales, Scotland even Italy are gone from just poor to horrendous.

robbiezero

This is a whopper semi-final though which was needed.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121268894#Comment_121268894

How is one of the four favourites not making it past the top eight not bottling it? Argentina made it to the top four for God’s sake.

Again all this talk about weak draws doesn’t hold any water when it comes to elite sport, and a team hoping to win the tournament.

It’s alright for plucky underdog Rep. of Ireland in Soccer to struggle to make it out of their group in the Euros but, in rugby, Ireland should be beating anyone they meet if they plan on winning the whole thing. As far as I’m concerned all the cribbing about weak draws and seeds is pathetic.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269309#Comment_121269309

They played one of the other top sides in the 1/4s? They lost by a score to a top side. how is that "bottling it"

Argentina were helped hugely by their draw.

yagan

It will be a great final.

Sheep breeder

On the topic, Jack had a great personality and was seen around the country fishing and drinking a pint and liked a bit of fun, at jack’s time the country needed a lift of spirits and Jacks team done that and also had Mick Byrne and Charlie who were two great characters, the big thing that endeared Jack to the people was how he looked after Paul McGrath who was so well liked by the public.

Andy Farrell has done a lot to bring rugby forward from the Goys brigade to the ordinary country people and rugby has gained great popularity in the last 10 years due to standards set to young players and also the competition at club level has increased a huge amount and is entertaining to watch.

The Gaa outside the club level is loosing ground at inter county level due to way football and hurling are now played with so much back passing and hand passing has slowed the game down now all to possession and the day of the skill full player is not wanted, hurling is played with a tennis ball and hand passing.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269346#Comment_121269346

The fact that they lost by a single score is indicative of them bottling it more than anything.

New Zealand were there for the taking, and of course Ireland had to bottle it. The dictionary definition of bottling is failing to beat a very beatable New Zealand side on the big stage.

Ireland were one of the four favourites to win but couldn’t get past the last eight. Bottled it.

Blaming it on the draw over and over again is sad, particularly when you’re saying that Argentina only made it as far as they did because of it. The same cruel draw that pitted Ireland against the mighty titans of Romania and Tonga. Nobody was complaining about the draw then.

Perhaps if the draw is rigged in Ireland’s favour next time they can win the coveted Quarter Finalists Winner Participation Trophy. Or perhaps Ireland can actually progress based on merit instead of cribbing about draws and seedings.

ottolwinner

i think the original question is now being answered with hindsight as to how far ireland got in the competition. When I asked it originally I was asking on the predictions of so many that Ireland were going to win it.

BlazingSaddler

I’d imagine he won’t get the adoration as one day he’ll be coaching England against Ireland

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269423#Comment_121269423

No it isnt an indication of Ireland bottling it. They lost a tight game against another one of the other sides who were all well clear of the rest. New Zealand could have been beaten but were better on the day. that doesnt mean we bottled it. we were narrowly beaten by a very good side. being beaten by a very good side after playing well isnt bottling it.

The draw is relevant because it shows how hard our 1/4 was.

We were one of 4 favourites and the 4 favourites met in the 1/4s. 2 of them had to exit in the 1/4s and the total difference in points in the 2 1/4s between the winners and losers was 5 points.

Its not sad at all to reference Argentina. Talking about Romania is irrelevant. We didnt play Fiji at this world cup, or any other....

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269428#Comment_121269428

Even if Ireland won the World Cup Farrell wouldn’t have the same place in Ireland’s cultural zeitgeist as Big Jack.

While I think the escapades of Ireland’s fans during the Italia 90 and USA 94 tournament were the height of cringe (particularly in Dublin where they seemed to have completely lost the run of themselves), Jack himself was someone who had a huge personality to match the giant success he had with Ireland.

Jack was charismatic, imminently quotable and tended to generate anecdotes wherever he went.

He was photogenic with his distinctive flat cap, slim frame, and the fact that his appearance barely changed throughout his entire adult life. His characteristic, and now slightly archaic, Ashington burr even made his voice magnetic.

Even if Ireland hadn’t done as well as they did under his management he would have probably been a figure in the public firmament for his personality alone. He won footballer of the year in 1967 in England even though he wasn’t even the best player in Leeds, only because the hacks liked him.

I don’t really know anything about Farrell but from what I can see he definitely doesn’t inspire the same kind of casual interest from non-sport fans as Jack did.

Bearing in mind that soccer had a similar minority following to modern rugby outside of Dublin prior to 1990 (though it is still non-existent in rugby’s case today except for Limerick) the comparisons are apt.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269467#Comment_121269467

Look at your post man, it looks like maths homework.

Elite sport is actually very simple. The best teams win, and they win by beating all comers regardless of draws, or seed rankings, or if Jupiter is in retrograde, or if two trains leave their stations 200miles apart at 150mph or anything else.

Ireland were hoping to win the World Cup but they bottled it at the last eight, again, against a beatable New Zealand side. End of. Tough luck for them, and I will certainly never entertain any Irish whining about draws or the humble brave warriors from South County Dublin who fell at the final hurdle.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269530#Comment_121269530

Bearing in mind that soccer had a similar minority following to modern rugby outside of Dublin prior to 1990 (though it is still non-existent in rugby’s case today except for Limerick) the comparisons are apt.

That's not true.

I grew up in rural Mayo in a family where the parents were not much interested in sports but we still knew loads about soccer.

Rugby today still has far less of the reach that soccer had prior to 1990.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269584#Comment_121269584

I also grew up in a rural area well before the 1990s glory days and soccer was a minority sport back then, behind Gaelic and hurling. There were some exceptions of course but for the most part soccer wasn’t as big outside of Dublin as it was down in the capital.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269569#Comment_121269569

Its like maths homework because i typed 1/4 instead of saying quarters.... right....

Ireland did hope to win the world cup. nobody will dispute that but losing to one of the sides that are now into the final. by 4 points in a very even game. is not bottling it. we played a very strong side in a very tight game we lost by a score. that isnt bottling the game

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269597#Comment_121269597

Italia 90 has become a kin to the GPO in 1916 in terms of exaggeration on forums like this. Because most on here were children or teenagers then it's full of nostalgia. Though you were around for Scotland in 1978 of course😅

We did well to come back and draw v England in Calgary. We were atrocious v Egypt. They were all old Division 1, Morris Celtic and Aldridge Real Sociedad. All the old Irish respected pros like Giles etc thought we were playing dirt. Between the Egypt and Dutch game there was a lot of criticism of our play.

We got a lucky breaking ball off the keeper to level v the Dutch. Romania were the better team in general play in the round of 16. They had a goalie that looked like he had the DTs. It was probably the poorest World Cup of all time.

There's a lot of talk about rugby being hyped by the media. Soccer is 10 times worse. During Covid we had Euro 1988 night, World Cup 1990, 1994 and 2002 night on RTE 2! In February 1995 RTE did a promo of the Ireland v England friendly going through Battles between us including the Yellow Ford, 9 years war victory in 1598! You can't have it both ways. Soccer was hyped to the hilt 1988-2002.

And as for Farrell losing a 50/50 game being incomparable with Jack. Jack got the ball rolling because a Scot scored against the run of play in Sofia in November 1987. A lucky general. Eoin Hand had some serious reffing decisions go against his Ireland and was unlucky to lose out on goal difference.

Jack Charlton was considered a bully by many. You say you know nothing of Andy Farrell and in this instance you are 100% accurate. He's of Irish ancestry and North of England working class. A really well liked man who empowers his players.

And your South Dublin argument is rubbish, like all your stuff. Caelan Doris (Mayo), JVDF (Wicklow), Peter O'Mahony (Cork), Beirne (Kildare), Furlong (Wexford), Herring (Belfast), Henderson, (Belfast), Loughman (Munster), Earls (Limerick), Murray (Limerick), Henshaw (Westmeath), McCloskey (Ulster), Kilcoyne (Munster), Crowley (Cork), Casey (Limerick), Conan (Wicklow), Jimmy O'Brien (Kildare) off the top of my head. Not SoCoDu. Would you like a geography lesson Olivia? I can give you one.

Choked a World Cup with 4 equal favourites, one of them playing at home!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121269423#Comment_121269423

Last night South Africa were heavy favourites to beat England.

England were 1 pt down as the clock went over 80min. Du Toit of South Africa didn't roll away from a ruck. 4/5 times that's a scoreable penalty to England. England would have beaten South Africa, who were huge favourites. If we were to apply your logic the later would be the biggest bottlers of all time. Because this was no 50/50 game like Ireland v New Zealand.

By your posting it seems you don't understand the fine lines between winning and losing. You can't fathom nuance regarding the 4 favourites and one side of the draw being very weak. This draw made in 2020 pitted the top 5 sides against one another.

However, I don't believe that for a minute. You are arguing from a disingenuous stance because you dislike extremely everything to do with Irish Rugby.