Will Andy Farrell get the adoration Jack Charlton got?

Ardillaun

How much better would one Irish soccer team be at the moment?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224914#Comment_121224914

Honestly don't know enough about either team to make a call like that.

Rep is 55 and Northern Ireland is 74. Probably the best time to join now. But without a proper league in Ireland will either of them ever progress based on sending players to England???

Bobson Dugnutt

I’m biased as I’ve loved rugby since I was a kid, played at amateur level, and follow the Boys in Green religiously.

There’s always been a bit of jealousy towards rugby and that comes from an inferiority complex. These can be broadly bunched into 3 categories.

1st is the “real football man”. This is some bore whose grandfather once played for Bohs and who now spends his time in the pub telling other northsiders that he wouldn’t open the curtains to watch rugby. Could have sent his son to a rugby school with the money he spent in the pub and chipper.

Country GAA man. This sort has thawed a bit over the years but still associates rugby with Dublin, Protestants, and obnoxious men in blazers.

Sport hating dork. The sort that was rubbish at sport at school and had to be physically dragged away from the PlayStation by his worried parents. Associates team sports with feelings of personal inadequacy on their behalf and jealously towards those who were good at sport in school. In fairness doesn’t like much else either.

nachouser

I don't follow Irish soccer or rugby but until I opened the thread I assumed Andy Farrell was the current Irish soccer manager.

I doubt there were many in the country at the time who did not know who "Give it a lash, Jack" referred to.

You lads need a better song.

walshb

Never really understood the hype around Jack and the England B team..

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225057#Comment_121225057

Farrell isn't a high profile guy though. He doesn't usually give interviews he doesn't need to give and he just does the job. Charlton was a character. Farrell isn't trying to be a character. Could be top craic with his mates but he isn't trying to be the Archbishop of Banterbury in public. He's trying to be a sports coach. I doubt he'd want the attention on himself, going by the way he behaves.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225089#Comment_121225089

Oh it's obvious enough. Ireland was just about to come into its own. It was a time of change and the beginnings of optimism. It was only 30 years after Ireland was described in terms of a third world country. I only remember italia 90 but the hype was class. It was a really exciting, optimistic time.

DeanAustin

I have no love for rugby. I haven't watched a second of the World Cup and am completely indifferent towards it. I just never got the sport which surprises people who know me because I'm generally a massive sports fan, particularly soccer. However, I would love Ireland to win World Cup.

I don't get Irish people hoping that they lose - why? Yeah, people jumping on the bandwagon can be annoying but every sport, including soccer, has had it when things are going well. That happens. But why on earth would you want Ireland to lose?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231085#Comment_121231085

Bitterness seems to be the most common reason, why Im still not 100% sure.

Badly Drunk Boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225057#Comment_121225057

You lads need a better song.

Somebody should start a thread about that... 😉

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231085#Comment_121231085

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231614#Comment_121231614

I would suspect judging by @clo-clo previous posts that the poster knows exactly and lines up defensive type posts comparing Soccer and Rugby rather than the adoration question. But prefers to pretend not to know as it would suit a narrative.

The fact is there are certain demographics in Ireland that views Rugby as a 'them v us' private school educated (Clongowes. Rock, Michael's etc) v the working classes. That perception is still there.

This is especially so among the soccer fraternity. Especially as the IRFU shows the FAI up time and again. For example Landsdowne/AVIVA will revert back to IRFU ownership when the lease is completed. Plus the IRFU astutely moved towards professionalism, the focus on the provinces was an excellent idea.

Much like how the die-hard Irish soccer fraternity hoped/assumed Croke Park would make the GAA bust and thought they would snap up cheap grounds as a result, many of the diehard soccer fraternity hoped that professionalism would at least weaken the IRFU financially.

But the opposite has happened. And the sport of Rugby clearly is growing, it has all ready made big strides in Connacht, and the counties adjoining Dublin counties mainly thanks to the provincal system.

Meanwhile the FAI and Irish soccer still look like the pauper organisation, broke, poorly run and needed to be bailed out by the government. This must be embarrassing and soul destroying for the Irish soccer fraternity. They downfall of Irish soccer started in the 50's/60's when the governance was headed by uneducated people. No business acumen. They could not take advantage of the big crowds Drums v Bohs etc.

So it is why Irish soccer is never stable, there is a market there but it is never tapped into properly. Growth is never held on to. Basically Irish soccer depends on the top down rather than, the stronger long term structure from the bottom up. So you get the occasional peak but mostly troughs. The peaks are normally because of accident rather than design.

Compare rugby beside soccer and it is another world. That is part of the reason why Farrell will never achieve the same adoration as Charlton had. Rugby does not have that universal appeal. With Charlton he drew in Rural Ireland (normally the GAA strongholds), the middle classes (normally Dublin GAA, Rugby), AND the working classes (predominantly diehard soccer areas)

Occasionally there is crossover between the three codes Soccer/GAA/Rugby. But soccer to Rugby would be a really rare one in my opinion. GAA to Rugby = yes it happens crossover in skills picking the ball up. Or GAA to soccer = the ball is at least round

It will take decades for the IRFU to get real footholds in working class Ireland. The soccer and rugby demographics and just world's apart.

Let's be honest more often than not if you listened on Radio (to a 10 second snippet) of GAA person/Soccer person/Rugby person talking on radio of a similar age in their 20's you would be able to make a good guess as to which their sport is. Barring the odd exception there would be major differences in levels of education, assuredness, vocabulary, and media savviness.

A big personality that constantly works the media would be the only hope to bring the working classes into the IRFU fold. But the IRFU don't really need the working class to grow, they are already a well run organisation.Why would the IRFU care about universal adoration (through Farrell) in Ireland?

But I would argue the only reason the IRFU would want to venture into working class deprived areas of Ireland would be for altruistic motives to give the areas a lift.

Improve mindsets and ways of thinking, giving young lads role models. Areas which currently mainly gravitate towards soccer and boxing/MMA. Dare I say. it could probably change Ireland politically if the IRFU did manage to get a foothold in working class areas.

But Farrell only had to focus on his main job in Rugby and the money will keep rolling in.

Will Farrell be adored by Ireland like Charlton was? No in my opinion. There is not enough integration and universality in Rugby across Ireland to achieve that. But the IRFU unlike Soccer (with Charlton) don't need that adoration and universality across all demographics in Ireland survive.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231870#Comment_121231870

Interesting post. I probably don't agree the only reason the IRFU would go to working class areas is altruism. The prospect of growing the audience and player base would make it worth the venture. But then there's the potential to spread themselves too thin and miss more potential top players.

Good post though. I never understand people wanting a national team to lose. I don't care about soccer, but I know that loads of Irish people would be happy if the team does well. So I wish the team well. It's a very simple calculation for me.

Madd Finn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219416#Comment_121219416

Matches decided on penalties, as was the match against Romania, are officially classified as draws. So we went the whole way to the quarter finals in 1990 without winning a single game. Unless you follow the logic of the Roddy Doyle character who opined: "We beat England 1-1; lost 0-0 to Egypt and drew with Holland!"

yagan

I was chatting with people earlier when the match on Saturday night was mentioned and while everyone wished a win, including myself, there was just a sense of only slight enthusiasm. Interestingly the parents were all in agreement that it's a brutal sport and wouldn't be encouraging their kids into it just on the current success.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232997#Comment_121232997

I was chatting to people at underage hurling training an hour ago and tomorrow is very much a big occasion in a GAA, Soccer area. Huge good will and interest. Kids all excited about it too.

It is a very dangerous sport in many ways, agreed.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231870#Comment_121231870

The perception of working class via rugby is spun by people like you. I am working class. My kids are playing rugby that would certain be described as a working class area.

The problems with the FAI are of their own making, the fans of course instead of demanding better would prefer to spend their time targeting other sports.

Honestly couldn't care less if Farrell does or doesn't get the same adoration at this stage. Would just like Ireland to hopefully have a more successful World Cup than they have had before. See what happens after that. Im sure if they win you can have a thread telling everyone how it doesn't matter because it's not soccer or some other ridiculous stuff

You are the one obsessed with talking about working class and private schools. I want to talk about the growth of rugby. My kids play soccer/GAA/rugby/running/gymnastics etc and they can pick themselves which sport they want to drop. If that's rugby so be it. Some people of course in Ireland won't give their kids that option and will force onto them whatever sport they like.

It's actually the job of the provinces and not the IRFU to break into new areas, hence why you see Leinster pushing into new schools all the time in Leinster and the same with other provinces. Why you have Bundee going around schools in Connacht etc. The Leinster mini camps when you get players at them and the Leinster players also do a tour of the clubs to train with the kids. FYI none of these actions are done based on classes

Im sure you will be still talking about working class and private schools for many years to come while everyone else just gets on with it

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121234394#Comment_121234394

I'm confused about the application of the English class system in any Irish context?

Are people from certain areas restricted by cost from pursuing further education? Myself and many others I know got through university with means tested grants and were far from any notion of comparable wealth.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121234438#Comment_121234438

I have no idea, I am not the one bringing up the discussion.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232997#Comment_121232997

That wouldn't be my experience this week, I've heard lots of mentions.

If you want real disinterest, I would suggest Ireland vs Greece in soccer tonight....I'd say most of the population weren't even aware we were playing a game, that's how low the soccer team has sunk.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235248#Comment_121235248

I wasn’t till one of the kids pulled out of training as he was going, stuck it on, it was awful with what looked like a near empty stadium

As I said already, maybe soccer fans would be better concentrating on fixing the FAI instead of telling everyone how terrible rugby is and how nobody supports it

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235248#Comment_121235248

Yip, couldn't watch anymore after the second goal.

But the central plank of this thread isn't about soccer versus rugby, both can be fantastic spectacles, but I don't see rugby now getting the same national celebration as Italia 90 returnees, even if they win.

In 1990 nearly half the population was under 25, the grim troubles and Catholic church dominated discourse, so euro 88 and then the world cup were very much uniting uplifting events that were embraced wholeheartedly as they completely transcended the insularity of the time and put us on the world stage for positive reasons.

Even if we do win the rwc I don't think there'll be the same uplift as Italia 90, Ireland then and Ireland now are two different societies.

Btw, I played neither soccer or rugby, I'm firmly on the bandwagon when either or both are doing well.

However I do feel as a non participant that rugby is a lot harder to understand and hard to get engrossed in when you're trying to figure out wtf just happened.

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235248#Comment_121235248

Soccer will rise again but it will be a few years, it wasn't that long ago we beat Italy in the euros and Germany in qualifications. That's the equivalent of in rugby terms of Italy beating the all blacks and South Africa in a world cup. There are ups and downs in all sports, rugby is having a golden period at the moment but it ain't going to last forever . As I said if we win this world cup in rugby Andy Farrell and the team deserve all the plaudits . It would be a great achivement

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236126#Comment_121236126

There was 41,000 at it last night, hardly an empty stadium. It's actually quiet a good attendance for a team who are doing shite.

Hyperbollix

For lots of reasons, Farrell will never equal Jack's mythical status. Aside from all the obvious stuff like rugby being an elite sport which will never capture the mass imagination like soccer did, Jack just happened to be the right man at the right time. He took over the Ireland job in the pits of the 1980's recession. Euro 88, Italia 90 and USA 94 were as much escapism for Irish people as anything else.

By the time he left a decade later in the mid 90's, things were picking up, there was prosperity, jobs, people who could never have dreamt of attending third level were going in their droves. It was just a hopeful, exciting time. Jack didn't do any of that of course, but he was part of the national story during it all.

So much of it is down to Jack himself though. A tough as old boots Englishman who had a lot more in common with Irish people than he had with plenty of his own countrymen. Despite his hard exterior he was a decent man underneath and even his harshest critics at the time would be first to say that now. In particular, his handling of Paul McGrath and making sure he was looked after by the staff and players throughout his time with Ireland, speaks volumes. Yes, you could say Paul was a great player, that's why Jack put the effort in. But I think a lot of it was because Jack knew what a fragile person Paul was and knew he had to be minded, unlike other people in the squad who could be given a kick up the arse.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121237375#Comment_121237375

The millions watching rugby on TV plus the thousands using planes/trains/automobiles would suggest that rugby is not an "elite sport which will never capture the mass imagination"

I was in a farm suppliers yesterday, picking up some bits, a mid 50's farmer behind me was on phone saying he was going to France for the weekend, no ticket but would go over and hopefully get one. Hardly what you would classify as the "elite"

Before you ask, no it wasn't in D4 🤣

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121237393#Comment_121237393

The people going to France are a drop in the ocean when looking at the general public.

The general public are not getting into the spirit of this RWC in any way.

I got a bus from Dublin airport to Drumcondra yesterday and I don't think I saw a single flag and certainly no bunting outside of houses.

I also took a redline Luas from the city as far as City West.

Again no flags or bunting.

You would not know a RWC with Ireland having a great chance of winning was on.

That would not be the case in a soccer world cup or Euros with Ireland in it.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236545#Comment_121236545

It's a tiny bit unfair to compare any sport to soccer in any event. It's the No.1 global sport by far....that doesn't lessen the achievement of any other team in team sport when they do something significant.

odyssey06

Ironically given this topic that in the stands the TV cameras picked up Irish supporters in Charlton era Opel soccer jerseys :)

JoeA3

No.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

Bottlers.