Deposit return scheme (recycling)

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975293#Comment_121975293

Literally no-one was thinking of the environment when this scheme was designed and implemented

That's the second most ridiculous thing I heard today. The whole point of this schemes introduction is to increase recycling rates

bog master

Fourth time using an RVM, 11 of 12 cans. Site clean, in fact in all my shopping I have never seen anyone using the RVM.

However, to date €7.70 paid in deposits—————-refunded €4.95. Loss of €2.75 over 4 weeks .68 cent. Does not seem much but if this ratio continues, it is €35.00 over a year.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975322#Comment_121975322

The point of this scheme is to more accurately measure what is returned versus what is bought. That's obvious. And even with that aim it is failing misserable if thats how you define failing.

It's got nothing to do with "the environment" or else you wouldn't implement a scheme that increases car journeys, increases the effort required to recycle, doesn't look at any other options on the RRR cycle etc etc

This scheme has a net negative effect on the environment - which to me is a fairly obvious outcome based on the practices we had in place prior to this scheme.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975390#Comment_121975390

Not only that but people are just gonna stop doing it - only so many times you are going to bother hauling a bag of cans and bottles to the store just to find the machines out of order again and again and again

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975293#Comment_121975293

if anything they were thinking how to exploit the environment, while at the same time masquerading supporting it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975030#Comment_121975030

its backlash towards the scheme and giving up on recycling as a whole, directly as a result of the scheme. can be called a form of protest in some way, or just having enough, calling it a day and being done with it all at this point, and being done with supporting it any further. Return caused this. people are sick of all these green pseudo taxes and being bossed around, bullied and told what to do by a system that just ignores them anyway and does as it sees fit, so they're fighting back by doing what they see fit, and by intentional non-compliance.

(playing devils advocate here btw and giving what i believe to be the reason, not my own reason)

EDIT: being lied to, also comes into it. People are only discovering now with threads like these where their recycleables are really going and where they have been going the past many years. it feels hopeless to some and pointless to recycle if the stuff is not even actually being recycled. the public already did their part, private bin companies who collected our recycleables, and our government are all to blame and at fault for this mess and the "low recycling numbers" which gave birth to this drs scheme. Now people see it as being punished for helping out, and the system demanding even more help from the people to clean the mess they, not the people, have made.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975368#Comment_121975368

It's figures like that €35 that bother me.

It's a little at a time that adds up.

I'd be thinking a nice bottle of whiskey or a few bottles of wine at Christmas.

Others might be thinking turkey or whatever else floats your boat.

So far I've had one failure and it's sitting in a box at home until I get around to trying it in a different machine.

Not everyone will bother and nor should they have to.

lisasimpson

I really don't get the anger over the scheme. 1st off there will be issues 1st couple of months. People need to complain to the company running it about the issues like broken machines and how shops are operating the refunds esp the one that won't just scan the ticket to reduce your bill at checkout.

Once a week when I'm going to do a top up for fresh fruit etc I take the few bottles and cans with me less likely to be a queue then than at weekends. We wouldn't have many to return each week. Once machine wasn't working so returned them next time. So far have gotten 3.30 back have a jar to see how much we get back between now and end of the year. About half that always from bottles picked up out walking so have probably broken even on what we paid in deposits taken the few error charges at the start. Would also advise not to use at bank hols esp sun and Monday. That when I've mostly seen local ones out of action

Saying that I would like to see improvements like machines that you could dump a bag into instead of 1 at a time crack. Would wreck me head after a party etc

Notmything

Used it for the first time today. Was going to use the machine in Dunnes but there was a queue so went to Aldi instead.

29 cans/bottles, some had to be put in a second time but overall none rejected.

Not something I'll do every week but probably let the bottles build up till I've a few euro worth and return them then.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975322#Comment_121975322

This system is in place to make some wánkers rich. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.

jj880

You have to concede the architects of Re-Turn have come up with a blinder of a scheme.

No matter what happens it will be spun as "success" along with a massive slush fund of unclaimed deposits.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975518#Comment_121975518

Sure and take 10-20-30 euro per household-nice tidy sum. And in my case another tax like MUP, where this government charges me another €500 per year to have a few drinks at home every week. Don't forget your waste collectors will and have done so already upped their prices.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975580#Comment_121975580

The people being lied to, BS'd around and treated like crap from the scheme is where their anger comes from. The suggestion you made about complaining to the company running it is very hard to accomplish when it falls on deaf ears. Myself and a couple others have already contacted re-turn via email weeks ago and have still yet to receive any kind of response. 1 or 2 people here mentioned receiving a fast response but i think it was something PR related i can't fully remember.

The scheme is causing a problem, not working like it's meant to. And causing harm to the enviroment. But really alot of this anger also comes down to people feeling cheated out of money, and having not really anyone to turn to when the machines refuse to accept their containers that they've paid a deposit on. i'm thankful enough to live in the city or near enough to it, but we have to acknowledge alot of the people out their in rural area's and their frustration when their machine's don't work and theirs no other shops around for them to go to for reclaiming their deposits.

Whats being done to support those? and whats being done to support anyone who can't leave home, or disabled, or relys on home deliveries? re-turn have alot to answer to, and i'm not really sure why people are still even defending them when their total disregard is clearly so blatant at this point. if this response was'nt satisfactory to anyone reading i would suggest anyone to read my previous recent response made before this one as it goes into more additional detail and reasons people feel frustrated with the scheme, or something. it's giving people who already recycle at home in their green bin a tax, and promotes people throwing cans out of car windows and leaving cans/bottles lying around in hopes that others miraculously come out of now where and return the recycleable container to an rvm somehow before it gets damaged. magically out of nowhere like. the ceo even briefly mentions this concept as a selling point in one of the interviews.

Can anyone also answer this: why does green initiatives and green things always cost the us, consumer more money? like example paper packaging instead of plastic, very nice, but why must we pay extra and foot the cost for their virtue signalling?

endacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975214#Comment_121975214

Was handier to just fcuk it into the ‘plastics’ bin in DA. Thereby responsibly recycling it as I’d always done, without the need to feed it into a stupid machine.

RetroEncabulator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972913#Comment_121972913

What's exactly is your point? I simply stated that the bulk machines would make it a lot easier and more customer friendly.

I don't get the sarcasm on boards sometimes. It's no wonder this place is a ghost town. Sarky answers to everything.

It's perfectly reasonable to point out that there are higher spec machines out there and that the scheme could and should embrace that.

However, obviously I'm wrong and how dare I bring it up.

That's me told I suppose.

vafankillar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975622#Comment_121975622

exactly, crony capitalism is just adapting to the prevailing norms and masquerading as a do-good scheme

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976236#Comment_121976236

This type of thing is always presented in the manner of other places are perfect and Ireland is sh*te and when pointed out the the example shown from Finland is actually the exception and the standard is the same as we have here you get all snarky and defensive. The fact is a bulk sorting machine would be more expensive take up more space and be prone to more problems than one where singulation is handled by the user rather than the equipment. Singulation is one of the biggest problems in industrial automation. The additional cost would not be worth the 45 seconds it would take to sort a few bottle themselves except possibly in locations where there is a very high volume of use.

There is probably nothing to stop locations looking at machines such as the one you showed though if they wished to. Doesnt fit with the Ireland is terrible at everything narrative though

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975580#Comment_121975580

You are struggling to see why people are annoyed?

We use to put our trash in a bin, now we have to travel to a very select bin and when the bin doesn't except the trash you want people to spend their time ringing call centres?

So we should be happy with that, should we?

I don't really see how you are struggling to be honest.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977950#Comment_121977950

Its a narrative you've forced because it certainly didn't come from the OP who simply said bulk sorting machines would make it easier.

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975748#Comment_121975748

They are giving uproar about the Meaisíní Díolta Droim ar Ais on RnaG too.

Example of the one shop on island, customers paying deposit and have no way of getting it back as the shop is so small it is exempt. Also tourists paying the deposit on the island can't get the refund.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975390#Comment_121975390

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975622#Comment_121975622

The point of this scheme is to bring our recycling rate of cans and bottles up from ~60% to 90%+ nothing more, nothing less. Recycling more helps protect the environment and makes the planet livable into the future. This isn't an opinion, this is fact, backed up by science and a general understanding of how the planet work

Anybody who thinks differently are the delusional ones. Anybody who thinks our govt have an ulterior motive on this scheme is giving our govt too much brain credit in my opinion

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975503#Comment_121975503

its backlash towards the scheme and giving up on recycling as a whole, directly as a result of the scheme. can be called a form of protest in some way, or just having enough, calling it a day and being done with it all at this point, and being done with supporting it any further. Return caused this. people are sick of all these green pseudo taxes and being bossed around, bullied and told what to do by a system that just ignores them anyway and does as it sees fit, so they're fighting back by doing what they see fit, and by intentional non-compliance.

I get that you were playing devils advocate. I accept that the system pisses a lot of people off, it's pissed me off a lot since it came in, but protesting by harming the environment is surely not the way to go? The entire reason we have the scheme in the first place is because too many people weren't separating their recycling properly from their waste

Being lied to, also comes into it. People are only discovering now with threads like these where their recycleables are really going and where they have been going the past many years. it feels hopeless to some and pointless to recycle if the stuff is not even actually being recycled. the public already did their part, private bin companies who collected our recycleables, and our government are all to blame and at fault for this mess and the "low recycling numbers" which gave birth to this drs scheme. Now people see it as being punished for helping out, and the system demanding even more help from the people to clean the mess they, not the people, have made.

We were never lied to. We always knew that we weren't recycling enough. People still threw the food waste into the recycling bin, or the cans into the waste bin and just didn't care. You might feel like you are being punished but if think of the environmental benefits surely the small inconvenience is worth it?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975738#Comment_121975738

The only thing MUP and DRS have in common is that is that neither is a tax.

MUP is straightforward legal robbery by which the Government empowered retailers by statute to take extra money from their customers. Money which they can never recover.

The whole point of DRS is we are supposed to get the money back.

That's why we need to do all we can to make sure we get refunded.

Thor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978293#Comment_121978293

Charging money first, and then returning it later is a tax. Always has been for any scheme introduced this way. had they made it 5c-10c and you didnt pay a deposit, that would have been an incentive for folks to reduce their costs, but now its just a tax they can get back if they put it more effort than they had to before.

But, lets go with your argument that this is pure. Who is it for?

I recycled at home, this is now more steps and more costs for me. More points of failure. Since I recycled everything i could already It wont have impact on me. How about for someone that didnt recycle at home. Are they now going to take the extra effort to recycle, for a couple of euro, or just forget about it. Leaving money is someone else's pocket.

Lets dig in more.

You say its for the environment.

How much money and power do all of the machines use?. How many extra trucks/work hours are needed to collect the recycling vs the greens bin that are still being collected. This negate the benefits and will do for a very long time.

More importantly. Why isn't the uncollected money automatically used to reduce costs of recycling at home, or in other areas to increase recycling efforts. It's because its about generating money.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978406#Comment_121978406

How much money and power do all of the machines use?. How many extra trucks/work hours are needed to collect the recycling vs the greens bin that are still being collected. This negate the benefits and will do for a very long time.

I don't know the answers. Do you have figures to back up your claims that they negate the benefits and will do for a very long time or is that just a baseless claim? If you're so annoyed by it, have you reached out to re-turn to find out?

Important to remember that general waste gets crushed before getting added to landfill and recycling mostly gets crushed after separation so is extra energy being consumed or just energy being moved from one building to another?

More importantly. Why isn't the uncollected money automatically used to reduce costs of recycling at home, or in other areas to increase recycling efforts. It's because its about generating money.

It does. Your point has very little to do with the environment though… Can't wait to hear where you actually think the uncollected money goes

I recycled at home, this is now more steps and more costs for me. More points of failure. Since I recycled everything i could already

Do you not still recycle at home? How is it more steps when you're bringing the containers with you while doing your shopping?

It wont have impact on me. How about for someone that didnt recycle at home. Are they now going to take the extra effort to recycle, for a couple of euro, or just forget about it. Leaving money is someone else's pocket.

Yes, that's the plan anyway, just like they did in other countries where the scheme was introduced. I'm glad you are finally understanding

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978406#Comment_121978406

Who do you propose funds the return-without-deposit money?

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978293#Comment_121978293

I worry for you. Genuinely.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978595#Comment_121978595

Says the person who thinks this scheme will make somebody rich… Most of the world worries for you

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978582#Comment_121978582

Everyone who pays their recycling bin charge??

Which we are STILL doing now.

The scheme was probably well intentioned but

1. It can only work as the "only option" scheme, like in Germany. We already had a existing recycling scheme, which worked well for the vast majority of people, but we have been let down by the process which happens beyond our house boundaries.

2. It was incredibly poorly implemented. I don't need to go through them myriad of teething problems that brand new machines had (which will only get worse as depreciation happens) but the inability to get a digital refund, the inability to spend the refund in a different store, and the hassle given to punters who want a cash return, are all examples of how the scheme doesn't work properly.

When we put material into our recycling minds at home, which we pay for, we fully expect that the material is properly recycled when it gets to the recycling centres. We find out later that a significant amount of material is brought to land fill, or is used in incineration. That's not something that was ever explained to me when I first requested a recycling bin, probably 20 years ago at this stage.

This obviously means that a significant portion of the 40% of material that wasn't being recycled was actually in the possession of recycling companies, not individuals, so for me the obvious way to improve on the 60% success rate was to target these companies and either enforce or support them to improve THEIR lack of ability to recycle the material that was not only given to them for free, but for which they were actually paid to recycle.

It took me three car journeys from my rural house last weekend to deposit a bag of material, due to machines having the "red hand says no"

So much for helping the environment

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978657#Comment_121978657

So that would be you getting your own money back, just like this system is then

Anyone who proposes that you should get money back without paying a deposit needs to explain where they think the money is coming from, if it isn't just them via a circuitous route.

Germans have domestic recycling too; and our domestic recycling system was absolutely not working.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978293#Comment_121978293

Our recycling rate for aluminium cans was already above the dubious figures you are stating.

Over 900 million aluminium drink can are sold in Ireland each year.  In 2019 the recycling and recovery rate was 79% (2019 figures)

https://www.aluproireland.ie/consumers/why-is-recycling-aluminium-so-important/#:~:text=Over%20900%20million%20aluminium%20drink,think%20we%20can%20do%20better!

So by your own declared standard, is that "delusional"?

Again with vague words which mean nothing… "A general understanding of how the planet work" does not necessarily translate to it making sense to recycle items either from an environmental or economic perspective.

So, cans were included not for any environmental reason or recycling target reason but because it was needed to make the economics of the scheme work.

Whether the government had an ulterior motive or not, the scheme has been captured by rent seekers and retailers to the detriment of consumers and the overall functioning of the scheme in my opinion. The increase in the size of exemptions, the consequent lack of manual returns means that item rejection issues are shoved onto the consumer to deal with or accept loss of deposit. We seem to have the largest exemption and in some other countries, if the machine is out of order manual returns must be accepted by the retailers. Why not here? What ulterior motive is in play and by whom?

Similarly the lack of bulk returns at government recycling centres is another failure. But probably the retailers wanted more punters in the door.