Planning - Lob Cabin behind House - Carlow

Kaisr Sose

Interesting OP

Reading the feedback on the good advice received, it looked like they were determined to build, with or without planning. I wonder if they went ahead.

I would love a log cabin (Alaskan Homestead style) but not in my back garden..

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424034#Comment_121424034

I'm saying that allowing people to live in trailers inevitably leads to trailer parks.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426860#Comment_121426860

No their there because accommodation can’t be got mainly.

Log cabins surely have a place in the right circumstances.

bfclancy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121428345#Comment_121428345

no they don't, to bring them up to spec would cost more than a traditional build, if not up to spec they'll leak in a year and if not maintained they'll be rotten in ten years and we'll have rotten carcasses of temporary dwellings littering the back gardens all over the country

thinkabouit

I know what your saying, ifs & buts

But

Housing crisis……..

thinkabouit

if only the policy makers thought 10 years down the line!

And I know what your saying, ifs & buts

This is the importance of context.

But there’s a serious Housing crisis right now.

If done right it can be a bog help & plus.

Ps, council’s & government departments have no issues repurposing anything for international protection applicants & refugees.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429111#Comment_121429111

housing crisis means we should let people any old sh1te that they personally think is good enough?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429111#Comment_121429111

you do not solve a housing crisis by providing unsuitable accommodation.

you solve a housing crisis by providing more houses.

those that are here temporarily are rightly housed in temporary accommodation (hotels / hostels / holiday homes etc)

those that are here permanently and have no homes need to be provided with one

'log cabins' are not permanent homes.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429615#Comment_121429615

Put it this way, if you are like the many people that homeless or living in tents or hotels or even people living at home with their parent’s until their 30s & 40s

would you take a temporary log cabin built somewhere suitable for the awhile

or

Continue to live as above for god knows how long?

Were in an accommodation crisis.

thinkabouit

I’d take something like that for ten year’s no bother until a proper house became available

Only reason Policy makers don’t like them is because they can’t milk enough money out of the idea & enslave people to 30 year mortgages.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429814#Comment_121429814

id imagine that picture wasnt taken in ireland, those sorts of things arent suitable for the irish climate in general

the costs associated with bringing them up to standard generally negate any perceived benefits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429783#Comment_121429783

and those sorts of things arent really the solution, theyre a sticking plaster on a gunshot wound

thinkabouit

You can buy them for cheaper than a year’s rent in Dublin!!

Homer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429991#Comment_121429991

That’s because they’re basically sheds lol

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121428345#Comment_121428345

So they don't have accommodation or property. Where do you think they'll be putting their log cabin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429814#Comment_121429814

Ok, let's say you could live in that. Where are you going to put it? How are you going to keep the lights on or heat it. You've still nowhere to live and you've a bough parts for a shed.

Who are these policy makers that are enslaving peopel to mortgages. You don't seem to understand how property works.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429991#Comment_121429991

Lets say it was allowed, ignore council policy. How much do you think it would cost to build one and move it. Less than a years rent, I'd doubt that.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431976#Comment_121431976

they’ll have to buy land or maybe there’s land in family in the countryside. Depends on the context.

You can put in services same as a house, i use a portable gas heater & it’s absolutely brilliant. Cheap as chips to run.

I actually understand very well how property works, the last few years have made it all very obvious.

It depends on the context, costs, spec etc involved will be different for everyone & everywhere.

rayjdav

If you could purchase one and had a plot of land to put it on, how is it serviced?

Cost to bring electricity to it €3,064 at todays rate. This is after you wire it to current standards. €€€€€€€€

Cost to put in water/waste water: €2,272 + €3,929 = €6201 + ground works €€€€€€€€. (This is of course if there is a connection available.)

If you are rural and sinking a well and a WWTS €15-20K.

You have to get planning for it so agent needs to be paid.

Planning contributions need to be paid. (Waiver will end in the next year or so..)

Builder usually required as enabling works outside of most people self build capability, this has to be paid.

Remedial works required to these cabins to make them liveable. OK as glamping/holiday overnighter but EVERY NIGHT......

They are not the cost effective solution being broadcast by the timber cabin suppliers. These same companies will tell you what you want to hear for the sale but when pushed on the more technical aspects of the sheds, as that is what they are, Fire and Part L Thermal, they don't have the answers. I've emailed a few previously and didn't get ANY replies to technical queries.

You can't just ignore Planning laws... That leads to a free for all and then same people will be first in the Q to condemn what happened in 10 years time and our kids will be left with unsuitable/unusable garden sheds in time to get rid of. Go back to our cities years ago and high rise towers were seen as the solution. Quickly realised it was not and brought more social issues than good.

The so called 7 year rule is grand IF you're not reported and have to reinstate the lands or, bigger problem, you try to sell. Retention permission will be needed and more than likely, refused, and rightly so.

Putting people in substandard accommodation is definitely not the answer. IMHO the regeneration of existing derelict stock in urban areas is the starting point. Planning exemptions are there and also grants to assist. Connections to services are there, taking out the above fees.

Relocation to rural areas does not suit everyone. There are also additional costs with living in the sticks too.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432140#Comment_121432140

So you think the solution you are proposing is for homeless people to just buy some land, or be gifted land and a build a cheap home. And you can't see any issue with that? Really?

A operable heater doesn't qualify as connecting services. Unless you proposed portable lights also. But it wasn't about the feasibility of service connections or even off-grid services. It was that they are not free.

I'm not sure you do understand how property works. As you were claiming that the council, or maybe the dept of the environment, were milking people with 30 year mortgages. How exactly are they doing that?

And yes, the obviously the cost will depends on the costs/context/spec. I'm asking on average. You said they are cheaper than a years rent. So presumably you have a cost in mind. I'm doubtful of that claim.

SharkMX

These have been going up all over the place where I live.

I watched last week as one was built and then I got talking to the couple moving into it (daughter of the garden owner and her bf). And they showed me around it.

The concrete base was done a month before anything else. This tapped into the sewerage pipes of her parents house. After about a month I saw a truck arrive and 3 men spent 2 days putting it up. Then one came back a week later and painted it over 2 days. At the same time another guy was fitting all the interior.

It was all done in a week apart from the base.

When they showed me around it it was lovely. I would gladly live in one. Electricity and internet coming from her parents house.

There is electric heating and also a wood burning stove in it. The shower runs off a hot water tank in the corner of the kitchenette.

So this couple told me it cost 22k finished. A few thousand cheaper if you wanted to paint it yourself or kit it out yourself. Thats not much more than a years rent for a couple.

Now I didnt ask this, but i assume that their address is her parents address and the have no utility bills anyway. Its all their parents bills so they probably share the cost. Bins, electricity, internet etc. So no issues with getting connected.

So many of these around here now that its obvious planners are ignoring them. There are even 2 in some gardens. And a whole lot of them that cant be seen from outside the garden at all.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433065#Comment_121433065

I’ll leave at this.

We have a massive massive accommodation crisis here. All options should be on the table.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433235#Comment_121433235

The fact you can’t answer proves my point.

A housing crisis means all sensible options are on the table. Not all ridiculous half baked ideas. Might as well be suggesting a free house for everyone.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433206#Comment_121433206

That’s probably the simplest use case. Were they aware it was illegal/unauthorised? Or did the selling company make up a planning exemption story? Some are honest about the planning situation, well only slightly muddying it.

I wouldn’t say there was no bother getting connected. I’d say it’s simply not connected, as it’s run off the house. Which is ok in a short term granny/family flat situation. But as it becomes longer term, disputes over bills/money are not unlikely (especially as a uninsulated cabin cost a lot to heat), or if the kids move out, and the owners want to rent it out or sell etc.

The 22k would be supply install cost for the cabin only (based on website prices for company above). On top of that you'd have the foundation costs, the connecting of waste, water and power - I'm sure you could do that on the cheap, but but pretty silly to take risks with electricity in a sleeping area. Actually the cost for the company above doesn't include wall insulation - Daddy probably in for a shock when the Winter electrical heating bill comes in.

The cost for the full spec 1 bed size (36sqm) is $30k, plus connections. Obviously if we're proposing these as actual homes you'd need to factor in the cost of land.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435567#Comment_121435567

They said the price they told me was the whole lot. And it varied a lot with different companies. Base, cabin, electricity and plumbing and fit out for the price they told me. It was kind of a one stop shop but involved 3 different companies. One to do the base and pipes. One to do the cabin, painting, electricity, plumbing and one that did the appliances and kitting out. They were definitely aware that they had no planning and they named a lot of people around here that we both know from when we were younger (some of whom i know very well who i intend to quiz on their cabins when i see them next). They also told me that one of the old men on the road has reported all the rest of them to the council and they saw him taking pictures of their so thats probably reported too. This guy knocks on peoples doors and tells them their Christmas lights are too bright. He writes strongly worded letters about everything. So if none of them have been reported yet for lack of planning i'll eat my woolly hat.

I did ask lots of question, but i have lots more still that i forgot to ask. If i ever get around to asking i'll post upthe answer to those here too. I probably wont go for something like this but it could be a last resort if we dont end up buying for now. If it were us doing this in my parents garden i would pay all the house bills as well as the cabin bills just out of gratitude. A months saving in rent would pay all the household bills for a year. After year one its all paid and id be saving on rent so could afford it. The whole cabin could even be knocked down after a year or so and we would still have been winning compared to rent. I doubt my parents would let us rent it out tbh, but if i had one and i was leaving and they didnt want to keep it i would either pay to get it removed or let them rent it and keep the money if they wanted.

That one that I watched as it was built was very interesting to watch. The first day of the actual cabin build I thought they had the cabin up and finished in a day, it looked like it was fully built, but then the next day they were putting insulation outside the walls and on the roof. Turned out that there was another skin of walls and roof to go over that then after that. So it was like a sandwich with insulation in the middle. I was surprised too that they have to be painted after they are up, inside and outside. I thought they would come with paint on them from the factory but they dont.

That one was not like the one in the photo above. No little decking are or anything. One step up to the door any you are in. The roof hangs out maybe a foot over the sides. They dont need a decking area as they already have a nice lawn and patio in front of it.

Im sure the costs of doing one of these in the parents garden is significantly less than doing one on a clean site, if that can even be done.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435146#Comment_121435146

I get depressed a little bit every time i come on this site & see complete stupidity from posters like you.

How else is a housing crisis going to get fixed if you don’t build enough accommodation?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436393#Comment_121436393

Yes homeless people should just buy land and build houses. Crisis solved. I'd expect that from a three year old who has no grasp of anything.

And if you want to throw around stupidity labels...

• No wonder where in a accommodation crisis!!
• No their there because accommodation can’t be got mainly.
• I know what your saying, ifs & buts
• Were in an accommodation crisis.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435146#Comment_121435146

The thing is - when the state fails it's citizens in terms of basic needs, then citizens will do what they need to do and to hell with the consequences. It's the old adage that bad law is just ignored. Doubtless sub standard accommodation will be built but that's a darn sight better than the current situation for many young people.

Housing minister was challenged yesterday at the contributory factors here than led in part to violence on streets of Dublin. He refused to acknowledge the link as I heard him and should be fired.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436631#Comment_121436631

Your putting words in my mouth and taken things the wrong way.

What is stupid about anything iv said?

We are in an accommodation crisis

Accomodation cant be got for alot of people that’s why their staying in hotels and on the streets. All these are facts man.

And councils, government etc are burning through tax money paying hotel’s, HAP etc

Id be using that money to put up some log cabins and start receiving rent from tenants.

Better off making €5 than losing €10

Log cabins might not suit you, they might suit other people and they should have the right to put up one.

your solution’s please?

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436631#Comment_121436631

Your putting words in my mouth and taken things the wrong way.

What is stupid about anything iv said?

We are in an accommodation crisis

Accomodation cant be got for alot of people that’s why their staying in hotels and on the streets. All these are facts man.

And councils, government etc are burning through tax money paying hotel’s, HAP etc

Id be using that money to put up some log cabins and start receiving rent from tenants.

Better off making €5 than losing €10

Log cabins might not suit you, they might suit other people and they should have the right to put up one.

your solution’s please?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436187#Comment_121436187

I've obviously no idea of the size of the the one you are referring to. The price I quoting was for the larger size 1 bed, although still far smaller than requirements. They have smaller/cheaper ones too. But some are really small, like a hobby room.

I assume that come with all electrics and plumbing. I was referring to the connection back into the switch board, water main, drainage, digging up the garden etc, I assume you are to provide that. Adding external insulation is an addition. Same with including the base slab or the painting. I think that don't come painted so people can choose to paint themselves and save.

They also told me that one of the old men on the road has reported all the rest of them to the council and they saw him taking pictures of their so that's probably reported too.

That's all it takes, council take one look, and send a letter. Invest down the drain.

The whole cabin could even be knocked down after a year or so and we would still have been winning compared to rent. I doubt my parents would let us rent it out tbh, but if i had one and i was leaving and they didn't want to keep it i would either pay to get it removed or let them rent it and keep the money if they wanted.

That's not a bad solution. And, if they could be conditioned like that they'd be far more appropriate. The reality is that most people are not that selfless or sensible. And once they used it, and no longer need t, they think about monetising it and turning it into a rental - or often that's the plan from the go.

That one was not like the one in the photo above. No little decking are or anything. One step up to the door any you are in. The roof hangs out maybe a foot over the sides. They dont need a decking area as they already have a nice lawn and patio in front of it.

That one is $65k, there's a larger one at $100k (both on sale, prehaps a perma-sale)

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436817#Comment_121436817

All I can tell you is that it seems to be much easier and cheaper than you seem to think. Noone is getting told to knock them down. I actually know someone who got reported and numerous letters from the council to knock down a shed that was huge about 15 years ago. He just ignored them and its still there, so i dont think anyone is going to be telling people to to knock down log cabins in gardens anytime soon. And even if they are told to knock them out im sure they could drag it out long enough that they saved themselves a fortune in rent before having to knock it down.

The one i was talking about in my post above is bigger than some apartments ive rented. Bigger than most of them actually. Its got a big double bedroom. A shower and an toilet. The living room has a kitchenette in one corner and there is a 2 ring hob, oven, skinny dishwasher and a washer dryer and a water tank in there too.

I had a wuick look for similar ones on google pictures in Ireland.

The closest I see to that one is the one in this link, but I think the one i was in is a bid longer and it doesnt have that big overhang at the front, but its close enough.

https://mycabin.ie/shop/residential/1-bedroom/one-bed-type-b-log-cabin-5-9m-x-6-4m/

That picture is from this website. https://mycabin.ie/product-category/garden/

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436780#Comment_121436780

You can't even see you mistakes when they're line up for you, but you are calling other stupid.

So the now the council should be building log cabins on other people land and housing the homeless. Homes that do not meet basic building regulations. Homes without the durability of a properly built house. That's really your suggestion. Well done, you've solved it. Maybe we'll fill up the phoenix park with cabins and people can just claim one. There's no housing crisis in the Brazilian favelas.

Take one look around there world the abject poverty that those kids of environment create. It's not a solution, its simple creating a bigger problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436757#Comment_121436757

The solution to a bad situation is to fix the factors contributing to the situation. Not everyone doing whatever they want imo. I'm not saying the current situation is fine, and saying a free-for-all is a terrible solution.

People have a right to shelter and housing. But it's not the same an everyone gets a semi-d for free. I'm not saying your suggesting that btw. But there's genuinely people who expect that, bizarrely also likely to be the same people complaining about taxes and the communists in government. The irony is mad.

If there was zero restriction on building small cabins. As I said above, the homeless are not the ones that will buy a wee site and erect a cozy cabin. There will some people with who be able to build there own space, on some extra land that they have. But the majority would be opportunistic developer/landlords building really awful accommodation and taking advantage of people. Building standards exist for a good reason.

I'm not total opposed to the concept. I'm opposed to building them without regarding for planning and building regulations, key difference. As a annex to a main dwelling (not a separate dwelling), to a proper standards, with respect for neighbouring properties, and private open space. That's probably fine imo. Building a few sheds with beds, and eploiting people to turn a profit, shockingly im not ok with that.