Planning - Lob Cabin behind House - Carlow

Splinters

Hi folks, Im absolute new to this whole process so would appreciate any guidance people can give me regarding applying to Carlow council for planning permission to build a 2 - 3 bedroom log cabin in the back of our garden. This is going to be for my mother in law to live in full time so we want to make sure we do it properly.

I did try searching previous posts but everything seems to relate to new build planning permission and I've no idea if this is the same process. We're not looking to divide up the land or create a new address. This building would be part of our property so on paper my mother in law would be living at our address.

I guess the first few questions I have would be...

How long would an application like this typically take?

Would I be complicating the application saying somebody would be living there full time or should I say its a guest house?

What kind of costs are involved in the planning permission process?

Do I need full and final designs for everything before submitting the application? Can these be subject to change?

Apologies if these are silly questions but I've never looked into this previously and am pretty clueless about the process.

muffler

Questions aren't silly at all. First of all any house type in the back yard/garden is usually unacceptable but a log cabin is a bigger problem in a way. Used as a garden shed they might be acceptable but not as a dwelling house. Your relation doesn't need 2 or 3 bedrooms so I would suggest you consider a granny flat attached to the house. This would be more acceptable to the planners.

Splinters

Does it have to equate to necessity? We want her to have some degree of independence with this. So we wanted her to have a spare room or two so she could have visitors or family stay over.

When you say a dwelling in the back is usually unacceptable does that mean this likely something we won't get permission for?

muffler

Im talking generally here as each planning application has to be treated on its own merits. Im assuming this is in a rural location but regardless the planners will normally take the view of "1 site for 1 house". You are hoping to have 2 houses on a single site and this is something that is not normally allowed and on face value it is likely that a planning application for this proposal would be refused.

However every case is different and matters such as site size, zoning, sewage disposal, etc etc all have to be examined. There is a facility provided by all local authorities titled "pre-planning inquiry" and maybe this is something you should look into. The service is free, you email/post a copy of plans (sketches would suffice), maps etc to the planning office and you then get a meeting with the local planner where you can discuss your proposal in a bit more detail. They give you a verbal indication that day and follow it up with a written response which will indicate their opinion on the proposal. They cant tell you yes or no but you will have a good idea as to what way they are thinking.

The other alternative is to engage a local architect/engineer/technician to first of all advise you and then if necessary make a planning application if they deem it worthy of doing so.

I'll go back to my original comment. If you want to look after the mother in law and get planning for a building then you should seriously consider a granny flat.

Splinters

Yes its a rural location and it would be to the rear of the property not blocking anyone view, not even visible from the road. Its really not the kind of location where this wouldn't have any impact on anyone except us.

The granny flat attached to the idea definitely wouldn't work. Ill save the big explanation on the family dynamic here but the only possible way this would work is a separate house where there was some degree of separation and independence.

The thing is I've seen this exact setup done many times before when I was buying our house. I guess a lot of people just plow ahead and bank on the 7 year rule kicking in so the council cannot do anything about the dwellings.

The other aspect of it, most of these log cabin companies offer a build option where these houses are not build on permanent foundations and are not classified as permanent structures. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the planning regulations are specifically worded for permanent structures. Most of these websites do still advise to talk to planning authorities for confirmation but they do say that a lot of councils do not require planning for these type of builds.

mickdw

I've surprisingly seen an application granted for a 2 or 3 bed holiday home detached from main house. This is in a rural area where its difficult to get planning for house for locals.

I thought it was a no hoper and they actually applied for holiday home too which is usually a straight no.

In the OPs case, I'd be looking at isolation unit etc - development plans have taken account of covid and people with poor health needing separate living quarters etc. Would be a very valid reason to need a detached independent living unit on a property.

Log cabin is a non runner.

Murph85

Would putting a mobile home there be an option?

Splinters

I think one way or another it has to be a log cabin. There wouldn't be budget for a permanent structure. It's increasingly sounding like I need to weigh up the possibility of doing this without planning. I'll be talking to a few of the more reputable log cabin companies next week and get their take on it.

Splinters

Possibly a mobile home but it might be a bit of an eyesore. I've not looked much into them but if it could be made to look nice then it could be worth considering.

Murph85

Look. Thos log cabin thing is a bit of a misnomer. They are simply timber framed structures. As you get timber framed dwellings the world over... they would be more typically he called garden rooms. If its just a simple box , no toilet or kitchen. Some companies have a 25 sq m structures up in a day !! Incouding the plastering, thats for one large open plan room.

Splinters

True, I know if it's under 25m2 then it doesn't require permission. I suspect this one will be more in the region of 60 - 70m2. Still small as far as houses go.

I think our best hope on going the legit route is if Carlow planners don't require planning for non permanent structures.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174177#Comment_121174177

You have a lot of stuff that you havent got right. First of all do not listen to what the log cabin manufacturers say or state on their brochures or website. Any structure that is habitable requires planning permission and there are no exceptions to that. Temporary or permanent makes no difference nor is there anything in planning legislation about foundations - temporary or permanent.

Before you go off spending money foolishly you need to discuss the project with a local "planning agent" and certainly not a guy who is trying to get you to buy his garden shed while masquerading it as some form of house.

SuperBowserWorld

What's the 7 year rule ? Build what you want and it's ok after 7 years ? 🤔

Splinters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174399#Comment_121174399

Basically, if not discovered for 7 years the councils have no avenue to remove it. I'm sure there's more specifics but effectively if you get away with it for 7 years, you've got away with it.

Splinters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174379#Comment_121174379

I do appreciate you're trying to help but there appears to be a bit of ignorance on these log cabins. They're far from garden sheds. Thanks for your advice.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174626#Comment_121174626

thats what people always say but there is much more to it than that, even though broadly speaking there is some truth in it

as another poster said, the only hope you have of anything like this getting through planning is if you engage a professional - archiect/engineer etc, - who can at least advise but more likely prepare and submit an application for you. from my experience, you will almost definitely not get planning for anything other than a conventional granny flat

and temporary structures like this would still have to have planning permission, whether you actually obtain it or not is up to you. but i would strongly against just hoping that you can have it standing for 7 years and think that its all fine then, it is in no way as simple as that

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.thepodfactory.ie/modular-homes-ireland/

Maybe one of these would suit, easy to move later

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174638#Comment_121174638

There's no ignorance on my part. I am more than familiar with these type of structures and I am also more than familiar with planning and building regulations. But hey, if you want to believe those guys then knock yourself out.

rayjdav

To be very clear, 7 years and enforcement cannot pursue it but it is still unauthorised. You go to sell your house, you will need retention and chances are will not be granted. Will hold up, and probably loose you a future sale.

As muffler said above, they will tell you what you want to hear but query part B and L of regs and they can't answer you. They run a mile. If something can't achieve part b fire as a minimum, I wouldn't live in it., no mind let the mother in law live there.

Glorified hobbies room at best is what they are.

Cal4567

OP. All I will add is you've been given some sound advice, and fair play to you all for coming forward.

It's up to you whether you listen to any of it. If I was you, I'd certainly do so, although you are right, there are many examples of others, 'It's my land and I'll do what I want with it' types who have taken the chance. Not for me though. Good luck in how you persue it.

Splinters

Thanks all. I do appreciate the advise although I will say any disparaging comments on the suitability of log cabins are just being ignored. I've been in enough of them and know of enough people happily living in them for me to confidently say they are right fit for what we want. You might not like them but that's not an opinion I'm asking for.

I'm thinking another approach on this project is to proceed with a planning application for an external living space and home offices. Since both my wife and I work from home full time it will be easy to get letters from our employers to support this. It's clear that the sticking point to all this is that the building would be used as a residence. I'm comfortable going through the planning process and stating different usage since it will still effectively be built to the same spec as regards insulation, plumbing, electricity etc. Yes I'm aware this is bending the rules but I think its a better alternative than proceeding without planning permission.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058316047/planning-lob-cabin-behind-house-carlow

There’s no silly questions. But to be blunt they do highlight an inexperience and perhaps some misunderstanding.

You may not intend to subdivide now, but you could charge your mind on that in future. So not really an argument in your favour.

Timeline. Will definitely be a FI request so I’d say 6-12months start to finish.

I doubt anyone would believe you’re building a 3bed guest house for occasional use. I certainly would lie about the intended use.

Coats can vary. Depends how much of the application you handle vrs a professional.

You don’t need full and final design, only the rough size and layout.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174042#Comment_121174042

If full separation is the only workable option, that’s fine. But the application should reflect that.

Dressing it up as an annex to the original house is unlikely to fly when in reality it’s a separate independent dwelling.

Im sure you’ve seen similar. But you’ve no idea how they structured it legally. Most often the site is subdivided and a fully separate house built for a family member.

Companies that tell you planning isn’t required are lying. They are basically trying to con you out of your money. Pretty big red flag imo.1

Theres really no such thing as temporary/permanent foundations. But regardless, a temporary/demountable building has no bearing on planning in this instance. You’re building a house, it requires planing in every single council.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174626#Comment_121174626

This is incorrect. After 7 years they can’t knock it, but you are haven’t got away with it. When you (or your children) go to sell, the issues come back up to bite you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175598#Comment_121175598

There are many people happily living in similar cabin type homes. These things are usually fine, until they are not.

Say there was fire or a food and the insurance company enquires if it met building registrations? Elderly people living along would of course be higher risk. Exponentially worse if somebody was hurt.

An exemption exists for a home office to be built without planning permission.

Applying for a home office, that’s triple the size of a home office and has a full kitchen and bathroom will be kinda obvious what your intent is. There will be a condition that prevents it being used as a dwelling. So once you use it as that, it’s completely unauthorised and the same as if you just built it without planning.

Sugradh001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174379#Comment_121174379

HI Muffler, I hope you don't mind me jumping on this tread , but can I ask , other than re sell / bequest issues, what other issues may arise from no planning permission is sought for a log cabin install. Will this impact on services - IE- Eircode / fibre / electricity / water / sanitation required ? You are correct in saying that the installation companies are ambiguous on this matter and any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404450#Comment_121404450

The obvious things are such as applying for connections to services. You would be asked for the planning reference number and perhaps a copy of this. No planning equals no connections. Then there is a risk of someone reporting the unauthorised structure. That can get messy.

Sugradh001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404960#Comment_121404960

Great , thanks very much for the clarification.

No wonder where in a accommodation crisis!!

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405098#Comment_121405098

People living in sheds is a symptom of the problem, not the solution to it.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405098#Comment_121405098

cos trailer parks have been such a success wherever they'd been used..... 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423658#Comment_121423658

Ok so well continue letting people live in hotel’s & emergency accommodation & the streets so instead of letting people sort their own accommodation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422662#Comment_121422662

So your saying adding or giving people the option to sort their own accommodation isn’t going to help?

Might work in certain contexts.

seems to work in other country’s.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424021#Comment_121424021

Nobody living in the street is there because they were not given planning permission to build a dwelling. The costs involved are not cheap

Kaisr Sose

Interesting OP

Reading the feedback on the good advice received, it looked like they were determined to build, with or without planning. I wonder if they went ahead.

I would love a log cabin (Alaskan Homestead style) but not in my back garden..

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424034#Comment_121424034

I'm saying that allowing people to live in trailers inevitably leads to trailer parks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426860#Comment_121426860

No their there because accommodation can’t be got mainly.

Log cabins surely have a place in the right circumstances.

bfclancy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121428345#Comment_121428345

no they don't, to bring them up to spec would cost more than a traditional build, if not up to spec they'll leak in a year and if not maintained they'll be rotten in ten years and we'll have rotten carcasses of temporary dwellings littering the back gardens all over the country

I know what your saying, ifs & buts

But

Housing crisis……..

if only the policy makers thought 10 years down the line!

And I know what your saying, ifs & buts

This is the importance of context.

But there’s a serious Housing crisis right now.

If done right it can be a bog help & plus.

Ps, council’s & government departments have no issues repurposing anything for international protection applicants & refugees.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429111#Comment_121429111

housing crisis means we should let people any old sh1te that they personally think is good enough?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429111#Comment_121429111

you do not solve a housing crisis by providing unsuitable accommodation.

you solve a housing crisis by providing more houses.

those that are here temporarily are rightly housed in temporary accommodation (hotels / hostels / holiday homes etc)

those that are here permanently and have no homes need to be provided with one

'log cabins' are not permanent homes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429615#Comment_121429615

Put it this way, if you are like the many people that homeless or living in tents or hotels or even people living at home with their parent’s until their 30s & 40s

would you take a temporary log cabin built somewhere suitable for the awhile

or

Continue to live as above for god knows how long?

Were in an accommodation crisis.

I’d take something like that for ten year’s no bother until a proper house became available

Only reason Policy makers don’t like them is because they can’t milk enough money out of the idea & enslave people to 30 year mortgages.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429814#Comment_121429814

id imagine that picture wasnt taken in ireland, those sorts of things arent suitable for the irish climate in general

the costs associated with bringing them up to standard generally negate any perceived benefits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429783#Comment_121429783

and those sorts of things arent really the solution, theyre a sticking plaster on a gunshot wound

You can buy them for cheaper than a year’s rent in Dublin!!

Homer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429991#Comment_121429991

That’s because they’re basically sheds lol

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121428345#Comment_121428345

So they don't have accommodation or property. Where do you think they'll be putting their log cabin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429814#Comment_121429814

Ok, let's say you could live in that. Where are you going to put it? How are you going to keep the lights on or heat it. You've still nowhere to live and you've a bough parts for a shed.

Who are these policy makers that are enslaving peopel to mortgages. You don't seem to understand how property works.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429991#Comment_121429991

Lets say it was allowed, ignore council policy. How much do you think it would cost to build one and move it. Less than a years rent, I'd doubt that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431976#Comment_121431976

they’ll have to buy land or maybe there’s land in family in the countryside. Depends on the context.

You can put in services same as a house, i use a portable gas heater & it’s absolutely brilliant. Cheap as chips to run.

I actually understand very well how property works, the last few years have made it all very obvious.

It depends on the context, costs, spec etc involved will be different for everyone & everywhere.

rayjdav

If you could purchase one and had a plot of land to put it on, how is it serviced?

Cost to bring electricity to it €3,064 at todays rate. This is after you wire it to current standards. €€€€€€€€

Cost to put in water/waste water: €2,272 + €3,929 = €6201 + ground works €€€€€€€€. (This is of course if there is a connection available.)

If you are rural and sinking a well and a WWTS €15-20K.

You have to get planning for it so agent needs to be paid.

Planning contributions need to be paid. (Waiver will end in the next year or so..)

Builder usually required as enabling works outside of most people self build capability, this has to be paid.

Remedial works required to these cabins to make them liveable. OK as glamping/holiday overnighter but EVERY NIGHT......

They are not the cost effective solution being broadcast by the timber cabin suppliers. These same companies will tell you what you want to hear for the sale but when pushed on the more technical aspects of the sheds, as that is what they are, Fire and Part L Thermal, they don't have the answers. I've emailed a few previously and didn't get ANY replies to technical queries.

You can't just ignore Planning laws... That leads to a free for all and then same people will be first in the Q to condemn what happened in 10 years time and our kids will be left with unsuitable/unusable garden sheds in time to get rid of. Go back to our cities years ago and high rise towers were seen as the solution. Quickly realised it was not and brought more social issues than good.

The so called 7 year rule is grand IF you're not reported and have to reinstate the lands or, bigger problem, you try to sell. Retention permission will be needed and more than likely, refused, and rightly so.

Putting people in substandard accommodation is definitely not the answer. IMHO the regeneration of existing derelict stock in urban areas is the starting point. Planning exemptions are there and also grants to assist. Connections to services are there, taking out the above fees.

Relocation to rural areas does not suit everyone. There are also additional costs with living in the sticks too.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432140#Comment_121432140

So you think the solution you are proposing is for homeless people to just buy some land, or be gifted land and a build a cheap home. And you can't see any issue with that? Really?

A operable heater doesn't qualify as connecting services. Unless you proposed portable lights also. But it wasn't about the feasibility of service connections or even off-grid services. It was that they are not free.

I'm not sure you do understand how property works. As you were claiming that the council, or maybe the dept of the environment, were milking people with 30 year mortgages. How exactly are they doing that?

And yes, the obviously the cost will depends on the costs/context/spec. I'm asking on average. You said they are cheaper than a years rent. So presumably you have a cost in mind. I'm doubtful of that claim.

SharkMX

These have been going up all over the place where I live.

I watched last week as one was built and then I got talking to the couple moving into it (daughter of the garden owner and her bf). And they showed me around it.

The concrete base was done a month before anything else. This tapped into the sewerage pipes of her parents house. After about a month I saw a truck arrive and 3 men spent 2 days putting it up. Then one came back a week later and painted it over 2 days. At the same time another guy was fitting all the interior.

It was all done in a week apart from the base.

When they showed me around it it was lovely. I would gladly live in one. Electricity and internet coming from her parents house.

There is electric heating and also a wood burning stove in it. The shower runs off a hot water tank in the corner of the kitchenette.

So this couple told me it cost 22k finished. A few thousand cheaper if you wanted to paint it yourself or kit it out yourself. Thats not much more than a years rent for a couple.

Now I didnt ask this, but i assume that their address is her parents address and the have no utility bills anyway. Its all their parents bills so they probably share the cost. Bins, electricity, internet etc. So no issues with getting connected.

So many of these around here now that its obvious planners are ignoring them. There are even 2 in some gardens. And a whole lot of them that cant be seen from outside the garden at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433065#Comment_121433065

I’ll leave at this.

We have a massive massive accommodation crisis here. All options should be on the table.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433235#Comment_121433235

The fact you can’t answer proves my point.

A housing crisis means all sensible options are on the table. Not all ridiculous half baked ideas. Might as well be suggesting a free house for everyone.