Can Anyone Tell Me Why a Heavy Rail Link to Dublin Airport Can Not be Built in the Short Term?

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925956#Comment_121925956

But we’ll still need to shift people from Swords and beyond in to the city centre and in your world of an obsolete airport, we’ll have loads of land ripe for residential and commercial development with a metro stop!!

So in your perceived view of the future, we actually need ML more than ever. 👏

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926126#Comment_121926126

That's true but I don't think flight will disappear completely - just become more the preserve of those travelling for business, politics, military and the occasional expensive flight for the ordinary plebs like us. It's all the short hop and weekend break stuff that will be unaffordable, tough.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926170#Comment_121926170

I mean you are likely to be very wrong on that prediction. Airlines aren’t making multi billion dollar orders for new aircraft to arrive in 2030 for the fun of it.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926170#Comment_121926170

Well if passenger numbers dramatically drop but don’t disappear altogether, the airport can be relocated and the redevelopment can go ahead.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925691#Comment_121925691

You need buy-in from every country in the world. If the UK has no tax on aviation fuel, then airplanes fuel there for the journey over and back. That then actually has a bigger carbon effect because they burn extra fuel carrying the extra load to Ireland for the flight back.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926545#Comment_121926545

The tax is charged on the fuel in the aircraft when it lands and on the extra it loads on to depart.

That is how to overcome that particular approach.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927063#Comment_121927063

If one country imposes that tax, all it does is make air traffic to that one country more expensive than to anywhere else.

As an island country, it would be one of the stupidest measures we could ever do. Where we need to start is with banning internal flights, both commercial and private. A large tax on helicopters and small planes would be a start.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927072#Comment_121927072

Well, I would think that we would only do that if it was an EU sponsored move.

Anyway, this is way off topic at this stage, so I will leave it there.

ArcadiaJunction

I just discovered that the Foynes Branch is being reopened without a single customer signed up.

Suddenly, even with all the limitations the DART spur to the airport increasingly seems like a magnificent idea.

G_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958116#Comment_121958116

I know nothing about the Foynes branch, but...

Reopening an existing line and building a new line to an airport from the busiest rail corridor in the country can hardly be compared, surely.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958116#Comment_121958116

There is no design for a "DART spur" to the airport so who knows what the limitations are? It's easy to project any sort of fantasy on what a DART spur would mean. Most of fantasy versions leave out the tricky bits and emphasise the easy "going through green fields" part in the middle. The cost of a double-track heavy rail 1.5km tunnel under the M1 and Airport buildings, the cost of an underground heavy rail station in the public transport area of the airport, the cost of a grade separated junction with the northern line, etc. mean that any cost comparison between any possible airport "spur" and the reinstatement of the Foynes line (which was carrying rail traffic until 25 years ago) is tenuous at best.

That's the cost side, it's the lack of benefits which kill the idea. There is no capacity to bring airport passengers anywhere useful (like the city centre) at peak times without displacing existing commuters. So in terms of benefits, it's a zero-sum game - the utility added for airport passengers is equal to utility taken away from existing northern line passengers.

Ronald Binge Redux

The proposed quad tracking makes it possible. However, as a shovel hasn't been lifted on Metrolink yet, and the excuses keep coming why it shouldn't happen, a heavy rail branch to the airport will not happen.

Disco24

What about both...

The 4 line track of northern line is going to be a big big ticket item if it happens, houses, bridges, gardens will need removal.

Keeping the metro is it viable to add two line heavy rail alongside metro from Donabate to tunnel south to Glasnevin and then heavy rail spur to Connolly - Docklands- Tara - Heuston. Yep different gauges but separate tracks to Metro.

Would be alternative to 4 tracking northern line allowing heavy rail trains north of Drogheda to get to city via airport. Also allow trains serving Heuston from waterford/ cork/ Galway to connect directly to airport. Attractive alternative to driving to Airport.

Could be used for dart underground for dart North to connect to dart SW.

Ambitious and expensive...

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960053#Comment_121960053

It would be insanely expensive (much more then Quad tracking the Northern line) and largely pointless.

Just extend Metrolink to Donabate or Rush and Lusk and 99% of this talk about extending heavy rail to the airport goes away.

No one coming from Belfast is going to care that they have to interchange with a Metro that passes every 90 seconds!

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960153#Comment_121960153

I suppose that would work if the aim was to minimise the exposure of private bus operators.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960402#Comment_121960402

I thought the goal was to build an efficient and cost effective public transport network that well integrates all the forms of public transport, including private buses, to get people where they need to go fast and efficiently.

The private coach companies are the best thing to happen to intercity public transport in 20 years in Ireland. Getting people quickly and comfortably between our cities and airports at a very low cost and forcing Irish Rail to actually be competitive, to innovate and keep ticket prices to low.

Why wouldn’t you love that?

I’d really hope folk aren’t suggesting we spend Billions or even tens of Billions on rail just because of some weird jealousy of the private bus companies! The goal really has to be much more than that, if you are just taking people out of private coaches, then you have failed miserably, we have far better things to spend billions on then that!

Don’t get me wrong, I fully supporting improving the heavy rail network, but it needs to be done in a sensible manner, with a focus on the projects that will have the greatest benefit in the shortest time.

People waste so much time banging on about crazy projects to connect the heavy rail network to the airport, meanwhile the Enterprise only runs every two hours, non of our intercity rail network is electrified and large parts of it are still single track!

This is all very much cart before the horse stuff, build Metrolink, DART+ and fix the above and then we can start talking about the airport.

Ronald Binge Redux

I really wish you'd dial down the hyperbole. It obscures any serious point you make.

A crazy scheme would be a national network of flying cars. I'm not sure that an occasional proposal by Irish Rail falls under that category. I've also spent far too much time stuck in suburban and city centre traffic on intercity buses to take them as seriously as you do.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960888#Comment_121960888

20+ years of travelling between Cork and Dublin by both train and intercity coach. My worst experience was an extra 3 hours stuck on a broken down train, while the most delayed I've been on a coach was 25 minutes into Cork because the Jack Lynch Tunnel was closed and caused traffic to back up.

I've found the coach (at least to Cork, but also less regularly to Galway/Belfast) to be extremely punctuational, rarely more then a 5 minutes difference (often 5 minutes early). As a result, I travel monthly by coach to Cork, when in the past I always took the train, I actually prefer the coach.

The way some people go on about trains here, you would think they are high speed TGV type trains or something like that, rather then rather slow, bouncy, noisy experience. As a result coaches can be very competitive.

Your experience of coaches might be different, you might not like them, that is fine, but it is hardly a reason to spend hundreds of millions or billions of tax payer money, just to save someone 5 minutes swapping from rail to a Metro!

I don't say the above to rag on Irish Rail or anything like that, just being honest, because I think we have the outlines of a really decent rail network, we just need to upgrade it and make better use of it. Electrify the lines, which should make it faster, quieter and less bouncy and now you have a decent competitive service.

I don't think it is particularly useful for the IR CEO to be going on about this link to the airport that was already studied and rejected. I'd rather see IR focus on DART+, maybe quad tracking, improving the core intercity network, etc.

Sure once all of that is done, then it would make sense to look at this project again and see if it still makes sense or some version of it. But personally I'd consider it to be super low priority, there are so many more important projects to work on first.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965007#Comment_121965007

Take it easy. I think your experiences of punctuality when it comes to coach buses is the exception rather than the norm. Most BÉ buses I've been on have been 30 minutes late at a minimum, more often than not more than that, with BÉ being very disinterested to adjust their times.

At least with a train you can trust that it will turn up on time when you want it to.

gjim

I'm not sure @bk is talking about BE coaches?

I first used the citylink or whatever it's now called express service from Limerick to Dublin airport a few years ago and now simply never consider the train for such a journey. Even when/if ML is rolled out, I can't see myself going back to the train. Even if using the train resulted in a faster end-to-end trip, I'm not sure I would bother forgoing the convenience and comfort of almost door-to-door service - particularly with luggage. The coaches have WIFI and toilets, the ride comfort is reasonable and the schedule is actually useful covering early mornings and late evenings. The motorway network has transformed the reliability of timings for inter-city coaches.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966876#Comment_121966876

Oh, I'm definitely not talking about BE here, LOL, yes I've had some very bad experiences with them!

No, I'm talking about the private intercity coach companies. In more then 10 years taking them at least once a month, I've never had one not turn up or be late. It just has never happened to me! And anyway even if it did, there is always one 30 minutes later (15 minutes in Galway).

They really are a fantastic service, so much better then BE and in some ways better then the train (though different pros and cons between the two). Modern, comfortable vehicles that are far smoother and quieter then the trains, reclining seats, wifi, power plugs, toilets and they usually turn the lights way down so you can sleep. They really are nice and extremely reliable IME.

For more then 25 years I've been regularly travelling between Cork and Dublin. For the first 10 years I took the train as the only other option was BE and it took 5 hours! Once the motorways opened up over 10 years ago and the new intercity coach services started up, I tried them once and I've literally only taken the train to Cork once in that time!

Over 15 years of first Aircoach and now Citylink to Cork monthly and the service has been brilliant. I've also travelled less frequently to Galway on Citylink and Belfast on Dublin Express and both similarly great, reliable and on time experiences.

Of course not every coach company is as good, but intercity on the motorways tend to be really good and VERY competitive with rail.