Can Anyone Tell Me Why a Heavy Rail Link to Dublin Airport Can Not be Built in the Short Term?

Sam Russell

I do not want to drift off topic, so I'll leave it there.

Testcard

Going back on topic, unless you happen to be a complete opponent of heavy rail it makes sense for the busiest entry port in the land to be connected to the national rail network. If we are serious about reducing car traffic into and out of DUB then give onward travellers the option of getting to their destinations across Ireland by train. This does not exclude Metrolink, whose prime objective is to serve Swords and North Dublin City.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149358#Comment_121149358

I think Metrolink defacto does this without reducing capacity on the Northern line nor the GSWR. When Metrolink happens, I can step onto an underground train whic arrives every 5 min at max, gets me to Glasnevin in probably 15-20 minutes, and (hopefully) step onto a timed Sligo train which drops me home.

This is a better outcome than trying to squish IC routing through Dublin Airport when lots of people have lots of different destinations. The benefit of the Glasnevin interchange is that it can theoretically facilitate interchanges for all lines barring the Belfast line, and when Metrolink gets extended northernly, even that is solved.

Testcard

Certainly having Metrolink in place at the airport will be a huge leap forward compared to what we have now!

Strategically we need both Metrolink and Heavy Rail in place to serve the two very different customer bases. Metrolink is fundamentally a commuter link for Swords and North Dublin and the needs of those passengers must come first, rather than trying to funnel (or squish!) air travellers onto what will already be packed commuter trains.

Heavy rail’s role will be be to transport passengers to and from longer distances across the Island. As mentioned before this is usual practice at many busy airports elsewhere.

All I am suggesting here is what has already been proposed at the level of the All Island Strategic Rail Review, which recognised the need for a significant heavy rail link at Dublin Airport to integrate the Airport into the National Heavy Rail network.

For 40 years NYC politicians could not get a rail link to JFK.

A single-minded mayor Giuliani(NOT A FAN) got one built in 7 years by erecting columns down the middle of the various expressways and a monorail atop these columns. Can we not do the same here?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153683#Comment_121153683

Metrolink is basically that. It will be on columns at certain points near the M50 etc.

Sam Russell

We are cursed with a railway gauge that is not the now standard gauge across the world. We have standard gauge on the Luas and will have it on the Metrolink.

It is clearly not possible to change the heavy gauge to standard, so we cannot run metro trains or Luas trams otherwise we could extend the Metrolink to Donabate and run some as far as Drogheda - but we cannot.

That is why there is a distinction between metro and heavy rail.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153949#Comment_121153949

Of course, nothing stopping us extending Metrolink to Donabate (or even better Rush & Lusk) to integrate with the Northern line.

Sure, it means a transfer, but that is completely normal for airports and connections all over the world. Most people really don't mind when the connection is every 5 minutes or less and usually sheltered.

bk

BTW While it is a pain in the arse that our heavy rail is on Irish gauge, even if it was on standard, it wouldn't mean you could run heavy rail trains on a standard gauge Metro line.

Different systems, different signalling, etc.

For instance in Copenhagen both their Metro and S-Trains (their DART) both run on standard gauge, but despite that S-Trains can't run on the Metro and vice versa. The Metro being 750V DC Third Rail and S-Trains being 1650V DC overhead, amongst many other differences.

We really need to get over the idea of mixing different type of services on the same track. It sort of made sense when we were broke, but it really doesn't make sense when you are building modern transport systems. Instead you need to focus on simplicity of operation, which in turn gives you very high frequency, capacity and reliability.

Thelonious Monk

We wont have any rail to the airport any time soon, but as I was cycling to Swords this morning for a work thing, on the old airport road, I was wondering why they can't just put some kind of protected bus lane in place from say Griffith Ave or up the road a bit that goes all the way to the airport. A fast shuttles that go up and down to the airport. At least then there would be a hub with a quick link to the airport from somewhere in the city. The space is there already, bus lane all the way.

Obviously there would be the need for bus lane cameras and proper enforcement, but even that seems beyond our means.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153624#Comment_121153624

I'm just confused about the value add if I'm honest. Like where are the Heavy rail people going to? Cork? Belfast? If they're Dublin bound, they'll be very well served by ML, far better served than any heavy Rail link. Currently there is no rail connection between the Northern line and the Western(Sligo) and Southern(Cork) lines, so a spur would need to be built to facilitate connections. And after all that that is still with additional IC services sharing tracks with the Dart Line. It isn't a question of a spur. The spur on its own does nothing if you can't find space between Dart and Belfast services to fit an additional 1/2 Sligo/Cork/etc services.

I would far far sooner use that cash to increase capacity on the existing lines passing through Glasnevin, which everyone will benefit from, not just folks travelling from the Airport. Developing the area around that station would be good also, it will likely exceed ridership than a lot of the existing Dublin commuter stations, in which case you have basically achieved what you wanted to begin with (a connection with Dublins Heavy Rail network)

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154382#Comment_121154382

there's already the port tunnel, the express buses from the city centre go down the quays (bus lanes already there), through the tunnel (rarely busy) and pop out on the M1 very near the airport. Why would you send them up Griffith Avenue.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154893#Comment_121154893

totally forgot the tunnel existed! did they not cancel the airlink service that went through there though? i remember taking it from the IFSC once a few years ago and it took 25 minutes or something like that, was an excellent service.

either way, a fully enforced bus lane on the swords road would give people more good options.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155739#Comment_121155739

Dublin Bus's Airlink service is sadly no more, but Dublin Express and Aircoach both run regular services to the airport via the tunnel. I've used Dublin Express a couple of times and it's quick and reliable, though I'm not a fan of using coaches for such a short journey as they take forever to load passengers and get luggage in and out of the hold etc. Airlink's modified double deckers were better IMO, if not as comfortable. Seems like it could be a route with potential for bendi-buses - Airport/Tunnel/Heuston/Busaras/Tunnel/Airport.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155781#Comment_121155781

Airlink was alright as far as the port end of the Port Tunnel - then it went to blazes if you wanted to get to Heuston as I used to. They could have encouraged folk to get on or off at the Point but that would have been far too much joined up thinking.

OisinCooke

Bit late to the party, my apologies, but the way that I would see a heavy rail link to the airport working out the best way possible would be in connection with DART Underground. If DARTs from the Heuston line entered the proposed tunnels at Inchicore with an underground station at Heuston, they would emerge at the Docklands, and join with the (quad tracked at this stage… hopefully) Northern Line and run non stop to Clongriffin where it would stop to connect with other DART services and maybe a few Enterprises or stopping trains from the North before branching left through to the airport. Heavy Rail services can then leave the airport for anywhere in the country with maximum 1 change theoretically. This is in an ideal world however, and unfortunately in terms of railways, our country is far from that…

Something that I think would work is to have at least every second intercity service into Heuston from each major destination call at Hazelhatch and Celbridge for an interchange with DART+ SW services to Glasnevin where a Metro and airport link could be made. This would be possible with signalling too as the DART+ programme aims to increase services on that line from 12 trains per hour to 36! And to facilitate a stop at Hazelhatch without adding to journey times, stopping at Kildare and Newbridge could be cut out for most intercity services and taken up by the stopping Portlaoise services instead. This, I feel would be a bit of joined up thinking airport transport wise.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886768#Comment_121886768

Such a route would require electric trains to wherever they were routed. That is unlikely for a very long time.

A simple Dart spur would require 7 km of new track from Clongriffin to the Airport and could be Dart. Metrolink would require a short extension to Donabate to connect north which would be a better solution.

riddlinrussell

The second part of OisinCooke's proposal is going to be the best way to get people country wide to the airport:

Northern Line, Metro extension at Lusk

Southern Line, Tara Metro

Sligo Line, Glasnevin Metro

Heuston Line is always going to be the most challenging to connect. With just Metrolink it's going to be two transfers (to Dart SW, then Glasnevin metro). But given the frequency of those two modes it shouldn't be a major problem (at least not major enough to justify a full heavy rail link from Hazelhatch round to Clongriffin by itself).

The way I see it, the optimal method for that line would be, ICs stop at Park West (Or Ballyfermot, and build Ballyfermot station sealed in with platform screen doors so its pleasant to sit and wait at.) before pulling into Heuston to allow Dart transfer (Rather than Hazelhatch so they can 'skip the queue') and ICs will be slowing on the Heuston approach then anyway.

The longer term "one transfer" solution will be Dart Underground/Dart+ Tunnel getting built with a Tara/SG West station for metro to the airport.

I think a heavy rail spur around Dublin would have to stand up on its operational benefits to the network as a whole rather than its ability to funnel people to the airport from down country. Especially given that we should be aiming to reduce air transit in favour of lower emissions options.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886768#Comment_121886768

I assume once both Metrolink and DART+ are in place, that intercity trains will stop at one of the DART+ stations allowing for transfer to DART+ and then to Metrolink for the airport.

Keep in mind that the plan is for Cork to go to a 30 minute frequency, so you could have every train stop at a DART+ station and then split the further out station stops split between the half hourly service, so you’d have no lose in journey time while adding great flexibility

You could even possibly have every second train from Cork head through the PPT, interchange with Metrolink at Glasnevin and onto the Connelly/Docklands area. Would be a very popular service IMO. Obviously it would depend on capacity of PPT and Connelly area.

Extend Metrolink to either Donabate or Rush And Lusk and you also have a nice interchange with the Northern line.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887400#Comment_121887400

Definitely Metrolink up to Donabate would be great and would really open up a lot of that land in north Dublin for development as well as providing a connection from the North to the airport via Enterprises stopping there. I do think there would be worth in the the Clongriffin link too though as it would be a direct heavy rail link to the airport from the southwest commuter and (by DART Underground) all the lines out of Heuston but as you say it’s a case of cost vs benefit…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887580#Comment_121887580

Yes actually I completely agree with this, it does make a lot more sense to do Parkwest, or even Ballyfermot (although the proposed site for this at the Kylemore Road Bridge doesn’t seem to leave a lot of space for 4 let alone an extra 5th platform…) I was just thinking Hazelhatch because it’d give access to all the stations on DART+ SW but your point about the trains slowing down anyway is very well made. And in fact there’s more space around Parkwest for a 5th or even 6th platform to give all Intercity services ample space and time to stop and interconnect with the DART’s. And yes ideally DART Underground will make the airport a one-change trip from absolutely any major city in the country which is great, regardless of whether the DARTs themselves follow through to the airport or whether it’s via a Metrolink connection in the city, I just hope it happens soon…!

A lot of thought really needs to be put into making Dublin a truly interconnected city transport wise, and this is before we even start talking about other light rail but I think that if the above few points are implemented in some way shape or form, it’d do us all well

riddlinrussell

I would note, the idea of dropping Newbridge or Kildare stops from ICs was raised, Newbridge sure but if they stop at Kildare now it shouldn't be dropped because its the interchange for the Waterford Line, same with Portarlington for Galway/Westport, LJ for Limerick/Tipp Line, Mallow for Kerry.

Well off topic but I think a bit of investment specifically into improving these junction stations (both operationally and in terms of facilities for passengers potentially waiting an extended period for a connecting train) would be well worth the effort.

KrisW1001

The Rail Review envisages IC services running on a separate higher-speed alignment from Portarlington to Hazlehatch, with a spur at Kildare to allow Waterford services to join/leave.

I don't think the target of 200 km/h running speed for Inter City services could be reached in Kildare without this separate line.

riddlinrussell

I'd broadly agree with that, not specifically saying "all trains should stop at Kildare", just that when it comes to services dropping either Newbridge or Kildare, Newbridge is the obvious option as Kildare is an interchange. The "fast" line would take that into account per the rail review.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887873#Comment_121887873

My reasoning for dropping Kildare and Newbridge in favour of Hazelhatch or Parkwest was that if all the ICs stopped at Parkwest or Hazelhatch, then that would provide the junction between all the lines but actually you’re right Kildare is the probably still the most ideal as if you’re going to Parkwest, you may as well just change in Dublin…

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888109#Comment_121888109

There definitely should be an intercity stop on the Dart Network such as HH, ParkWest etc. Otherwise passengers using an IC service will need to make additional changes in the city, which isn't going to encourage people out of cars.

People coming from the suburbs either have to go inbound to Heuston Main or outbound to Kildare/Portlaoise (via DartSW & a Commuter train) to catch an IC, which is not ideal. Unfortunately, one of those stations would need an upgrade to 6, or even 8, platforms to handle that capacity, which I don't see happening any time soon.

riddlinrussell

To get back very bluntly to the actual topic, it depends on your definition of 'short term'

If 'short term' means 'between now and when the metrolink is built' then it won't be possible because the planning process for such a link will take longer than the remaining time on Metrolink (barring some huge disaster of a change which would probably also affect any heavy rail planning anyway)

If it means 'after Metrolink exists', the the answer would be 'Because the Metrolink exists and does a better job of what you'd want the heavy rail to do, i.e. transport passengers to Dublin Area for onward travel. There isnt any chance of air to rail freight as far as I can see so no justification for it there, and the 'one change' option works for a majority of potential rail options, where your biggest risk is a long wait for the Intercity, which you'd have anyway with one change if you got the heavy rail spur from Airport to Connolly

prunudo

Personal think the 'airport to northern line' corridor should be kept for a future metro line, connecting the aforementioned and contuining west to Ballycoolin (plenty of employment here), Blanchardstown, Lucan and beyond, linking with other heavy rail at the various cross over points.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889567#Comment_121889567

That is just recreating Metro West. Though Metro West is too the south of the airport. Metro West could continue east to Clongriffin to connect with the Northern line or up through the airport, onto Swords and then onto Donabate or Rush and Lusk.

prunudo

I thought Metro west had been canned. Is there still a vague route in the pipeline? Eitherway, I still think the airport- northern line corridor should be kept for something grander than a 7km 'heavy rail to the airport'.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889678#Comment_121889678

It isn't part of the current transport strategy, however it is supposed to be reconsidered in future for a post 2035 plan.

To be honest, I think it is starting to dawn on them that buses are starting to reach their maximum potential/capacity and now there are lots of rumblings of new Luas lines, I really wouldn't be surprised if Metro West will return too, it just makes too much sense. Plus the way they are extending the Green Line to Finglas is basically begging for it. A Finglas to Airport section would basically be the start of Metro West.

BTW, no reason why you couldn't use the Airport to Clongriffin corridor for both a heavy rail line and a Metro line, plenty of space for that. It is more about what you are trying to achieve, costs, priorities, CBA, etc.

Personally I think it is better to connect Metrolink (and thus the airport) to the Northern line by Donabate or Rush and Lusk. This has two benefits, it connects the Northern line to the airport, but it also opens up a massive amount of land for development north of Swords. You could easily house 50 to 100,000 extra people along such a line.

You can't do that via the Clongriffin corridor as it is under the flight path of the airport, so very limited development potential. I think it is fine to leave it for a potential future heavy rail line.