Can Anyone Tell Me Why a Heavy Rail Link to Dublin Airport Can Not be Built in the Short Term?

Testcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131284#Comment_121131284

I wouldn’t base demand for a rail service on counting the numbers of people who use coach services. Modal shift from cars to public transport is far more likely when a quality rail service is supplied.

This report discusses modal shift in some detail: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=6189fac09d5511c9418c7e1dcc0287a4567cae3a

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132469#Comment_121132469

Not all trains would go to the airport. Just some - depending on demand.

Err... That sounds really poor. So we are saying only an intercity train goes to the airport every two hours or every three hours! And spend Billions to achieve that!

Would it not be better to build Metro West so intercity and commuting passengers could change to the airport from every train, rather then an infrequent service. Sure I know it means a change to Metro, but the trade off for intercity passengers would be the choice of far more services.

Improve the idea if it needs to be..

Sure, Metro West is the improvement to this idea.

Cheaper to build, more broadly benefits the city (not just intercity passengers going to the Airport) and even better for intercity passengers as it would connect to all intercity services.

BTW The All Island Rail Review looked into this idea and rejected it. I assume because most people are going to the city and it doesn't make sense to split services like this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132588#Comment_121132588

I wouldn’t base demand for a rail service on counting the numbers of people who use coach services. Modal shift from cars to public transport is far more likely when a quality rail service is supplied.

Ah, to be clear, I'm not talking about what the modal shift from car to rail would be. Rather I'm talking about what percentage split of passengers are heading to the Airport versus Dublin City.

I see no reason why the percentage split would be different for rail then coach. The point I'm getting at being that most intercity passengers (whether coach or rail) are heading to Dublin City, not the airport. Thus it doesn't make sense to route intercity trains via the airport if it makes a worse experience for the majority of passengers heading to Dublin City.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132469#Comment_121132469

The real difficulty here is the fact that heavy rail runs on 1600mm gauge and Metro/ Luas 1400mm. It's a real shame, but that's what we have to work with.

I like the idea of more heavy rail routes around the city, but I don't think it would ever be justified, given it would exclude Metro trams.

Sam Russell

@bk

The proposal for 25 km of new rail to connect many services on the west of Dublin with each other and with the northern line has merits. It would do more than bring intercity traffic to the airport as it would also be Dart compatible. The airport has a lot of car based traffic that needs to be shifted to rail as buses and coaches could not cope - they cannot cope now judging by the traffic problems around the airport. The metro, while being vital, is not enough because it is just north-south which renders it just a shuttle service for most of the airport workers and passengers. It also would connect the western industrial estates with the land around Clongriffin that is ripe for housing.

A lot more than connecting Portadown to Mullingar - where did that come from? Was it to justify the 'All Ireland' in the title of the report.

Where did the 'billions' come from? It does not all need to be done as one project, and it does not need to be tunnelled.

It is a pity that the extensive rail proposals from the 1970s were dismissed and never acted upon, except for the coastal Dart line. If only ......

bk

Sam, even without tunnelling, it would still be 2 to 3 Billion, based on the costings of other lines in the rail report. Just the branch from Clongriffin to the airport was costed at 1 Billion and your proposed line is much longer than that. Also I seriously doubt you could avoid tunnelling at the airport.

As for saying DART etc. can also go to the airport, again you have the same issue as with intercity. The VAST majority of people using DART, etc are heading to Dublin City, not the airport. Redirecting some DARTs to the airport at less frequency creates a worse service for them.

Surely you can see the problem with this idea. Surely you can see the logic that it would be a better service for everyone if all DARTS and intercity trains went straight to the City and those wanting to go to the Airport change onto frequent Metro West service to the airport.

Sam Russell

The Clongriffin to Airport link was costed by IR in 2006 (or so) at €200 million - if I recall..

If it was built then, it would be very valuable, but of course it was not. The interconnector was also planned then - but that never happened either.

If Metro North had been built when it had the Railway Order, it would be very valuable - but it was not built. If the Metrolink was built for opening in 2025, we would be looking forward to a brilliant service, not only to the airport, but to Swords, DCU, the Mater, the city centre, and out to Sandyford. But it has not got past ABP yet.

A lot of missed opportunities - with many more to come.

bk

Plus thinking about it, why would you want to Direct DARTs to the airport? Western DART's will be able to get to the airport by Metrolink at Cross & Gun and Southern DART's at Tara St. That just leaves Northern DART which could cheaply and easily be solved by extending Metrolink to the Northern line.

There really is no reason why you would redirect DART's to the airport!

The metro, while being vital, is not enough because it is just north-south which renders it just a shuttle service for most of the airport workers and passengers.

That isn't true, it also connects three of the 4 DART lines to the airport as described above.

Also loco and I are suggesting building Metro West instead, which would give you far more connectivity around Dublin, while cheaper to build. You seem to keep ignoring that.

It also would connect the western industrial estates with the land around Clongriffin that is ripe for housing.

No, the area between Clongriffin and the Airport is under the flight paths, so not suitable for housing. If you want housing it makes more sense to extend Metro North of Swords, tons of space there for massive amounts of housing and not under the flight paths and would allow you to connect to the Northern line at low cost.

I can see why this idea was rejected by the experts at ARUP and Irish Rail, while initially it sounds nice, once you get into the details it really doesn't make sense.

bk

The Clongriffin to Airport link was costed by IR in 2006 (or so) at €200 million - if I recall..

It wasn't built then, because it didn't make sense back then either, not without Northern Line Quad tracking and even then a poor experience, as the reports into it found.

A lot of missed opportunities - with many more to come.

Sure, all of us would LOVE if Metro North and DART Underground were open today.

But that doesn't mean we should be running around with crayons proposing poor projects that don't make sense.

What we need to do is focus on getting Metrolink and DART+ built.

Sam Russell

Well, the question was 'in the short term', so could it be done in the short term?

Well, no, nothing gets done in the short term.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133263#Comment_121133263

Yes. Crayoning new lines on maps can superficially appear to offer great connectivity improvements for lots of different journeys but the reality is that without high frequency of service and timed connections the prettily drawn lines offer little value.

Map lines make everything look wonderful and make all sorts of connections look possible when they're not. Looking at a rail map of Ireland you might think - for example - Nenagh is connected to Kilkenny by rail but this journey isn't remotely practical if feasible at all because of low frequencies. And with low frequencies connections are painful. And the solution is not to run 5 trains an hour from Nenagh to Limerick, etc. - you have to be realistic about demand and the economics of running largely empty trains just to be able to offer frequency.

So if serving the airport with hourly trains whether from Belfast or DART will add little to improving rail connectivity. The CBA will never come close to working given the passenger numbers and nobody is going to sit around on a platform for average for a half an hour/worst case an hour waiting for an airport DART or intercity train. People just don't make journeys that way - just like they don't use trains to get from Nenagh to Waterford. Yes your rail map will look a lot more impressive but that's neither here nor there.

Grandeeod

2023 reality.

I arrived off a UK flight tonight. My plan was to accept the woeful and long public transport options to Portlaoise. The bus didn't show up. It was pissing rain and cold. I got a taxi that cost me 180 quid after negotiation. I wanted home to see my family and get a decent sleep so I can start work again in the morning in a fit state. But I'm still awake with anger.

2015 promise.

I take Metro North to Stephens green. Switch to Dart underground for Heuston and then train to Portlaoise. That's just one small example. There are a multitude of others.

Back to reality.

People from as far as Waterford waiting for no show buses and making emergency arrangements. Twenty odd years later and we are still talking about it and still reinventing the wheel. Anyone happy to keep getting the crayons out and believing something will be built isn't affected by the entire mess. There's a huge difference between a hobby/interest and reality.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131284#Comment_121131284

But is the final destination Dublin City Centre? A heavy rail link around the city might bring more people closer to their final destination.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137847#Comment_121137847

For many, yes, for the rest, yes they head into the city so they can easily change onto all the other public transport routes that pass through the city too.

Heavy rail isn't particularly a good option for getting around a city, those last 20km's or so are typically better served by Metro, tram, bus. More stops, closer stops, more frequency. You can sort of do it with DART, but it is closer to a commuter service (and even more so with DART+) then a city based service.

You'd be much better off building Metro West then trying to drive Intercity trains across random routes across a city.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137847#Comment_121137847

Metro West and Dart could provide that connection assuming all intercity trains had fixed outer city stops. These stations could become core to the network with multiple bus routes passing through as well as trams, Metro, Dart.

For intercity travel, you should not have to travel into the city centre, from the suburbs, just to travel back out through the suburbs.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138471#Comment_121138471

That was my thinking. If a train from Cork to Belfast, stopped at Dublin Adamstown, Dublin Clonsilla, Dublin Airport and Dublin Donabate on its way to Belfast, there would be huge potential for interconnection. Problem would be demand from local customers could be bigger.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138796#Comment_121138796

Except very few people would be making this trip and you are taking capacity from Dublin City where most people want to go.

A project like this would have a terrible CBA given how much it would cost to build versus how relatively few people would use it.

An alternative idea, would be to just route every second Cork train though the PPT to Connolly:

• The plan for future is for Cork to go to 30 minutes, so you could have one train a hour go to Connolly and one an hour to Heuston
• Have the Connolly train stop at Cross & Gun for easy change to Metrolink and the airport (or Swords, Stephen’s Green, etc.)
• Connolly would be a super popular destination itself for folks coming from Cork as it is in the heart of the City
• You could then continue this train up to Belfast for a full Cork to Belfast service.
• Have this Cork train stop at Adamstown or similar so folks could change onto it from the other intercity services too.

Sure you couldn’t do this for free, some modifications around Connolly would be required. But it would be much cheaper than building a line across North Dublin and it would get you mostly the same service.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138796#Comment_121138796

This is the fundamental problem with the idea of new intercity alignments from the north going through the airport and onwards - the CBA won't have a chance given hourly trains from Belfast or even 2 an hour. So then the idea is that this alignment would be also useful for commuters in Dublin. But if the concern is providing something useful for commuters, then build something commuter specific - with 5/10 minute peak frequencies instead of trying to cobble together a Frankenstein half-intercity/half-commuter alignment and service.

I don't know why this keeps idea coming up - it doesn't solve any pressing problem, it would cost a fortune and it would require (for the tunnelled section) electrification along the entire route. Much more value would be gained by providing denser rail based commuting services around the centre of the city - e.g. after ML and DART+, add a bunch of city centre tram lines, a second metro line and DART-U so that arriving intercity passengers would have lots of options for all sorts of journeys. This would benefit everyone.

Sam Russell

The question raised in this thread is 'in the short term' which all the arguments appear to take as being in the next 50 years.

The Metrolink was promised to open the 2025, then 2027, then 2035, then 2037. Now those dates are not short term for anyone.

It is quite clear that no new rail track going anywhere will be carring passengers within a decade - mainly because of the planning system. Given the electoral cycle, I doubt that anything proposed will not be cancelled or redesigned by an incoming Gov. So as has become normal, everything will not be built because there is a better idea favoured by the incoming Gov.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139745#Comment_121139745

I don't particularly like the potential incoming government but if they give a massive boot up the arse to official inertia over transport and their sclerotic cheerleaders like McDowell then they will have done the country some service.

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121095609#Comment_121095609

Brain fart: Melbourne airport train link delayed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Airport_rail_link

We already have the train station in the basement of Terminal 1!

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141913#Comment_121141913

We have students at DCU complaining of parking charges on campus for students living on campus.

Why do students living on campus need parking spaces for their cars?

It is this nationwide requirement to have car access to everywhere for everyone that has the provision of public transport neglected. Mothers complain that they have to drive their children the two Km to school because the roads are so unsafe for the children to walk or cycle. Parking on pavements and cycle lanes is so common that nothing is done about it by the Gardai or the local councils.

Any attempt by anyone to restrict cars is seen as an attack on rural Ireland. And the provision of rail transport is seen as such an attack.

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141955#Comment_121141955

There is no station under T1.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142041#Comment_121142041

There is a basement - and I think it was reserved for a station but was used as an extra check-in area.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142068#Comment_121142068

IIRC it’s one of three station boxes in the city. The others are under the Mater (built for MetroNorth) and under the Carroll factory at Charlemont (built for MetroLink). Let’s hope the third one gets used for actual trains.

bk

"It is this nationwide requirement to have car access to everywhere for everyone that has the provision of public transport neglected. Mothers complain that they have to drive their children the two Km to school because the roads are so unsafe for the children to walk or cycle. Parking on pavements and cycle lanes is so common that nothing is done about it by the Gardai or the local councils."

A few days ago I watched a mother drive her SUV a good 20 meters along the new dedicated cycle lane on Griffith Avenue right outside schools. As in she literally drove on the cycle path, with footpath on one side of her and parked cars on the other side! All because there was some traffic ahead of her and she wanted to squeeze into any empty parking spot!

Right in the middle of a cycle lane that was literally supposed to help children to safely cycle to school. A cycle lane that has taken four years to build and clearly has been built to a terrible standard.

It is all depressing as hell.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143033#Comment_121143033

Did you complain to AGS?

We need to have more enforcement.

Zebra3

Griffith Avenue slowly but surely sinking into being another car park as well.

Looks like green spaces around mature trees have been tarmaced over to make it handier for motorists to illegally park.

Was this work carried out by DCC?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143809#Comment_121143809

Unfortunately no, though I did let the school know. To be honest it happened so fast I was taken aback. I'm used to seeing cars and a mini bus parked in the cycle lane every other day, but this was particularly shocking.

The design of this new cycle lane is a complete failure IMO. Other parts of Griffith Avenue aren't so bad, but it is a complete disaster in front the schools. It will only be a matter of time before there is a serious accident there.

Also can I point out the stupidity of the fact that they have three traffic wardens on signalised crossings by these schools, but the real danger is at the entrance and exit to the church, which crosses the footpath that all the children use, but there are no lights to control the car and no traffic wardens.

It is really very mad around there.

Sam Russell

A couple a decent bollards would be useful.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144020#Comment_121144020

There is bollards all over this area, but still not enough! There are trees and grass on the footpath, but they had to surround the grass in bollards with chains hanging between them to stop people from parking on the grass! People drive up on the footpaths every day.

But what is also crazy, where there is on street car parking, there is no bollards or even curb separating the parked cars from the new cycle path. As in other parts of the road, where there is no onstreet parking, the cycle path is separated by a curb, half arsed, but it is there. But in the sections with onstreet parking, there is not separation, they just assume people will park responsilby.... They don't!

It sort of works on other parts of the road, but near the schools, it doesn't work at all, as all the cars are only parking there at school time. So it is mayhem of cars pulling in and out, doors being opened into the cycle lane without looking, kids and even parents just randomly standing in the cycle lane!