The Wolfe Tones

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071544#Comment_121071544

Got you. I misunderstood.

I completely agree that up north they love winding each other up. I often wonder if they would enjoy their own cultural events half as much if it didn't wind up the other side.

If the Nationalists ignored the 12th parades, I'd say attendance numbers would drop off dramatically in a few years.

They could suffocate each others cultures by not trying to stop them expressing

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071573#Comment_121071573

Who is claiming it was? Does Bloody Sunday mean Kingsmills was justified?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312296/the-wolfe-tones

It's not wrong. Enjoy it if you want to.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071557#Comment_121071557

You can wander the streets of Temple Bar on many a summers day and hear ballads being knocked out for the tourists. If you like that sort of stuff, I won't hinder your enjoyment.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071548#Comment_121071548

There have been numerous instances of football supporters chanting about other teams' tragedies. When Manchester United play, opposition supporters sometimes chant "Munich". Supporters of teams other than Liverpool goad Liverpool supporters by repeating lies about Hillsborough.

Players who have suffered personal tragedies in their lives, ie. their wife dying from cancer, have chants mocking such aimed at them.

You can't really ban this stuff. But is that an excuse for supporters to go ahead and shout these chants? Does it mean they should do it?

Musicrules

Lots of people need a history lesson but it's probably not the young lads and ladies who went to see the Wolfe Tones!

There was a war in the North of Ireland from 1969, it was not started or created by the PIRA. They only formed to defend their community from attack. They then went on the attack. Some of the killings were disgusting and wrong but overall they fought the 'cleaner' war compared with the other side.

It was a horrible, dirty war, like all wars really but the PIRA targeted active participants for the most part. On the other hand, the British side targeted innocents for the most part. This is all backed up on the Cain website.

Ordinary men and women joined the PIRA to defend their community knowing that the chances of them being sent to prison or being killed was very high. They were fighting against loyalists backed up by the local police force and the British armed forces. These men and women of the PIRA were extremely brave and we should be proud of them.

pc7

All this chat of it has it on repeat in my head, I keep humming it, its catchy in fairness.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071645#Comment_121071645

That's a Disney version of history and yes the people who chant Up The Ra very much do need to learn real history, because they clearly don't know it.

The Provos killed more Catholics than any other group in the Troubles.

The Provos were the people who dragged Bernard Teggart out of his special school and murdered him for the "crime" of talking to a British soldier. Bernard Teggart was a 15 year Catholic boy with the mental age of an 8 year old. He was also the son of Danny Teggart, one of the Ballymurphy victims. Some way to "protect" your own community that was.

When people shout "Up The Ra", that's the kind of barbaric act they are celebrating.

Contrary to what some people would like us to believe, words actually DO mean something.

timmyntc

Ooh ahh somebodys hit a nerve

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071503#Comment_121071503

The fact of the matter is, whether you, I, or anyone else like it or not, without the IRA campaign the North would look like a VERY different place than it is today. There was never going to be any kind of compromise or agreement if the IRA campaign never existed. The "Provos" may have handed in their weapons at the end of the day, but they were also instrumental in shaping Northern Ireland into what it is presently. That state of affairs didn't come out of nowhere.

Unpalatable as that may be.

Ashbourne hoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071153#Comment_121071153

Absolutely. A great song.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071681#Comment_121071681

There's plenty of atrocity to go round with regards to the war in the North. But let's not pretend that the IRA were acting in a vacuum, or that Loyalist paramilitaries were above such actions.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071681#Comment_121071681

The PIRA killed less innocents than the British side. For them, it was any catholic will do for the most part. The PIRA targeted active participants, they weren't fighting the war on religious grounds. Yes, there were inexcusable acts but the fought the 'cleaner' war!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071629#Comment_121071629

That's tragedy chanting, which has very little to do with what we are talking about. I have no idea where you are going with that strawman.

I'm not too familiar with the works of The Wolfe Tones but isn't what is offending you so much a lyric in one of their songs?

You don't seem to want the song banned?

So what exactly do you want?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071699#Comment_121071699

Little known or acknowledged fact: most of the demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights movement in relation to housing, employment, voting etc. were either met or were on the way to being met - due to the work of the peaceful, constitutional Civil rights movement - by the time the Provo's campaign got into full swing. The Provo's campaign of atrocities set back their cause by 30 years. I can fully understand why a young man in the late 60's / early 70's mighht have joined the Provos, but that doesn't excuse the results.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071681#Comment_121071681

The one with the Disney version is you. All wars are dirty and civilians get it the worst.

The current Ukraine war saw women raped and people tortured.

The Brits murdered hundreds of innocents in India in 1919 and invaded Iraq for non existent weapons in 2003.

There are many more examples but it was the Brits that allowed the situation in Northern Ireland get out of hand.

The huge surge in IRA came after the Brits opened fire on bloody Sunday.

You really can't blame people for defending themselves.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071932#Comment_121071932

Situations for Catholics and Nationalists may have been slightly better than they were in the 40's or 50's. But it's false to say that they were good or even "well on the way" as far as I'm concerned. Bear in mind that even basic rights to demonstrations were being banned by the ruling Unionist government in 1967. That doesn't signify that anything was "well on the way" by any means.

Being a member of the Catholic minority in the North at the end of the 60's wasn't a great position to be in, nor would it have improved all that much into the 70's, and we all need to be honest about this if we're to look at the history of the conflict in terms other than having a mindless rant about a particular side, which is often the way these discussions end up.

We need to move away from this idea that the IRA just woke up one morning and decided to start planting bombs because there was nothing else to do. It was circumstances that brought about their campaign and circumstances that informed their actions, up to and including the ceasefire in the 90's.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071699#Comment_121071699

Without the Provos' 28 year long campaign of murder the North would have been a much better place. Catholic politicians and Civil Rights groups were actually making a difference. The Provos ended all that and sent NI into an abyss.

The violence achieved absolutely nothing except devastation, deepened already existing divides, and completely removed any chance of a united Ireland in any of our lifetimes. It was the pressure and intervention of British, Irish and US politicians alongside the heroic work of John Hume and the SDLP which brought about peace in the 1990s and at the end of it Sinn Fein and the Provos had nothing to show for their 28 years of murder except surrender, official acceptance of British rule, and a nice line in Bobby Sands t-shirts.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071920#Comment_121071920

I object to the celebratory chanting of the name of a murder gang for similar reasons to why I would object to the celebratory chanting of the name of a serial killer, or indeed to mocking the personal tragedy of a footballer or mocking or lying about the tragedy befallen by Liverpool at Hillsborough.

Because it's fecking wrong.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071698#Comment_121071698

This seems to be the only sort of response defenders of the Up The Ra chant have.

"Oooh, that's wound them up, delicious", "this is hilarious" etc etc.

It's also the response of somebody who chooses to have a mental age of about 6.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072049#Comment_121072049

I understand you object.

But you haven't quantified what you want.

It sounds very like censorship.

So where does that end?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072027#Comment_121072027

It's pure fantasy to pretend that Civil Rights Movement in Northern Ireland was advancing at anything but a snails pace. Nor is it true to try and paint a picture that there was anything close to an outcome where there was true parity of rights or fair treatment. It's equally false to pretend that the likes of John Hume wouldn't have been simply brushed aside if the ruling Unionists had had everything their own way. And, lastly, it was the IRA campaign that largely brought attention to the situation in the North from the US.

Whether you like or not, the IRA campaign had a significant effect on the political outcomes in Northern Ireland in terms of bargaining chips, both behind the scenes and in front of them.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072000#Comment_121072000

You're trying to erase fact from history.

One would hope that everybody commenting here understands the context of Northern Ireland 1921-1969 and what a cold house it was for Catholics.

But none of that, none of it, excuses the nearly three decades long murder campaign of the Provos. None of it.

Bloody Friday was not the appropriate response to Bloody Sunday. That Bloody Sunday happened doesn't make Bloody Friday any less evil. That Whitecross happened doesn't make Kingsmills any less evil.

Does the fact the Provos' Shankill Road bombing happened in October 1993 make any less evil the Loyalists' retaliation when they shot eight people dead at a mainly Catholic pub in Greysteel a week later? Of course it doesn't.

Tit for tat does not excuse evil.

In terms of "defending themselves", the Provos murdered 338 Catholics and instilled fear in their own community. They did not defend them.

It grimly hilarious how people point (correctly) to the historical evils perpetrated by the Catholic Church in this country as regards sex abuse, mother and baby homes, Magdalene laundries etc., and then turn around and expect people to not just suddenly forget that the Provos murdered civilians including Catholics by the truckload, but to actively celebrate that decades long orgy of murder.

The hypocrisy is mind bending.

It all goes to show that Irish nationalism, when you boil it down, is the same as all other toxic nationalisms including British nationalism, Russian nationalism and white American nationalism aka racist fascism - it believes in its eternal victimhood and eternal virtue and no facts or context can persuade it otherwise.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071920#Comment_121071920

I've never really heard that term before.

Where do you stand with other songs like the Billy Boys song? Tragedy chanting or fair exercise of culture and history?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072066#Comment_121072066

Many people who lived in the north in the troubles all enjoy the song. They would be in a much better position to judge whether it is appropriate or not.

Why should anyone value your opinion in matters NI? You dont live there, you clearly never grew up in the shadow of the troubles, never had to deal with soldiers kicking down your door to search your house, army checkpoints in your daily life, living in fear of having your houses burnt out or your parents badly beaten by loyalist thugs.

Why should anyone take loopys opinion seriously? Hilarious is the notion that anyone cares about your opinion.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072241#Comment_121072241

All taunting / celebration of terrorist groups is wrong, but you do not have ballad groups on stage playing to thousands chanting "U,U, UDA, F* the Pope and the IRA" at festivals anywhere. Such festivals would be rightly ostracised if not banned if that was the case.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071593#Comment_121071593

Does singing a song which has nothing to do with either matter to any of that?

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072301#Comment_121072301

In your view was the IRA always a terrorist group? Or at some stage was it an army fighting another Army?

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072301#Comment_121072301

There's a whole 12th July festival you appear to be unaware of.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072340#Comment_121072340

The Provos did Kingsmills. 12 workmen were ambushed and frogmarched out of a minibus in the January dark. The one Catholic among them was told to run. The 11 Protestants were butchered. "Up the Ra" is a celebration of the people who did Kingsmills.