Niger

HalloweenJack

The continuance of Franceafrique is wrong of course but you can't ignore the role that Russia is playing in stoking tensions. This is not a black and white situation.

The mess in Africa goes back to imperial powers drawing arbitrary lines on maps without consideration for inter-ethnic disputes (or perhaps, very much aware of them and using them to quell disruption during colonisation).

The problems in Mali come from the Tuareg in the north wanting separation from the Bambara in the south. Northern Nigeria is Muslim-majority and the South is Christian. The British stitched the two together and threw the Igbo in for good measure. The Biafran war? Boko Haram? Legacies of imperialism, as is the English-Fremch language conflict in Cameroon. Take pretty much any country in Africa and you can find inter-ethnic conflicts that existed before and during colonialism.

These situations need to be resolved internally and foreign powers, whether from the West or Russia and China need to keep out. The problem of globalisation, legacy investments from imperialism and neo-colonialism make it very difficult for that to happen but neither side should be cheered on for intervening.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963032#Comment_120963032

Which investments to be exact? I thought that loans China issued to other country's had to be secured by assets from the country getting the loan? Use of ports, airports, mines, water, mineral rights etc which China would then "own" for a set nr of years?.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964356#Comment_120964356

If the the thread is about Niger as you suggest, why then are you peddling Kremlinite conspiracy theories about Ukraine unprompted? You did that, and no one else.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963932#Comment_120963932

"There are a huge amount of people in the world who would disagree with you on that."

We call those people Kremlinite QAnon headmelts. Doesn't matter their number or where they're from, they have worms in their skulls. There was no coup.

Dohnjoe

I see ECOWAS have just approved armed intervention and have deployed troops. That should put pressure on the junta (who've been asking Russian mercenaries for assistance)

Big Ears

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963683#Comment_120963683

Did you not say it's not for me or you to determine what government should be in control in Niger, but the Nigerien people ?

Yet here you are questioning the elected government. If they want change then elections in 2 1/2 years time can bring that. If the Junta who are now in control were really concerned with just how things were being ran and not gaining control themselves they could have announced fresh elections........yet they have not.

Perhaps you're not happy with the government here in Ireland. Would you support a military coup for the opposition to take power or do you believe waiting for the next election/pushing for an early election is the appropriate action ?

Or do you generally believe democracy is wrong ?

Yakov P. Golyadkin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963943#Comment_120963943

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/6/thousands-in-niger-rally-in-support-of-coup-leaders

30,000 supporters in a city of over 1 million does not constitute a majority.

And given that it is a military coup we can forgive people for being reluctant to openly oppose it.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964687#Comment_120964687

The poster thinks the fate of the people of the Sahel is just part of a jolly old game of giving "the West" a bloody nose no matter what the cost. If Africans die or a state collapses into full autocracy backstopped by Russian mercanary scumbags who should be serving their time in Siberian prisons for reprehensible crimes, so what - it's all just part of the loser internet game they play.

France's record in West Africa since decolonisation is a mixed one. For sure, they can be accused of sharp practice in their business dealings on occasion, but they have also in several instances gone to the well to keep many of the states alive as going concerns in the face of massive challenges with jihadism and rolling economic crises. To try to tag them as villains of the piece is rank stupidity. Particularly when the alternative presented is outright rapacious Russian mercanaries with a mafia bent who should be breaking rocks in Yakutsk instead of destroying lives in Africa.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964702#Comment_120964702

That’s true. I’ve just been reading up on Niger. They first become an independent republic in July 1960. July 2023 and this coup has just ended their 7th attempt at being a republic.

I doubt attempt No8 will be their last.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964388#Comment_120964388

Im sure the people of Niger are more than capable of deciding who they want to have economic relations with, whether that be Russia, China or even Saudi Arabia, as if it had been working out having close economic ties to France they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964842#Comment_120964842

They did decide, they democratically elected Bazoum in 2021.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964842#Comment_120964842

The "people of Niger" haven't decided this course of events, a coterie of military goons with Russian backing have.

Plenty of other African and developing countries are practiced in, and have learned the hard way, about what having closer economic relations with the likes of China means: predatory lending from Chinese state institutions, pork-barrell useless infrastructure projects that generate no returns or productivity to the country for the explicit benefit of Chinese contractors - and punishing repayment terms when the deals go sour.

You're living in la-la land if you think Russia and China offer Africa credible genuine partnerships. The reason dysfunctional African states take on these loans is because unlike the IMF or World Bank, China doesn't come to them with strings attached on governence and anti-graft measures or procedures. Which is entirely the point - it's sweetheart money for corrupt African elites and Chinese contractors, Africa be damned. You're suffering from a ideological psychosis. If the Russian foreign ministry issued a press-release saying the sky is green, you'd be logged-in here within minutes repeating it word-for-word.

You are quite correct, the people of Niger via their democratic institutions are perfectly entitled to choose their economic partners as they see fit, but they have not done so, their institutions have been hijacked by a military junta. The Tankie sleight-of-hand you tried to execute falls apart on this very point.

brickster69

What i can't understand is how did Burkhino Faso, Chad, Mali and Guinea all have a military coup in the last couple of years and no one said anything ?

What is the difference this time around with Niger ?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964842#Comment_120964842

The lessening French influence there allows things like this to happen.

Once upon a time France would have sent in a force and restored the President.

Now it is just heading towards another African semi failed State without rule of law, democratic votes or human rights, all of which are European concepts.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120965737#Comment_120965737

I read about them in the news.

The area is called the "coup belt" for a reason. Most people usually aren't bothered to make a thread about them here unless there's some agenda.

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120965752#Comment_120965752

western ‘intervention’ went well in Libya didn’t it.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/07/libya-un-experts-alarmed-reports-trafficking-persons-arbitrary-detention

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966726#Comment_120966726

Why are Russia there exactly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120965752#Comment_120965752

These countries supposedly gained their independence from France, why is France having any influence?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966726#Comment_120966726

22 countries of the Arab league backed intervention in Libya. Russia and China enabled it by not vetoing it at the UN. So pretty much the world backed intervention there. Didn't work out great, but then there's the case of Syria, which didn't experience the same intervention and turned into the 7th level of hell. So pick your poison.

When Gbagbo in Ivory Coast didn't leave after he lost power, the French (and some others) intervened militarily, and *holds breath*, somehow that **** worked out.

Prior to an intervention it's impossible to know the outcome, but if it's anything less than good, then it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And naturally all the campists on the internet will lose their minds if it's any sort of Western intervention, regardless of circumstances, because the West is the cartoon villain in their reductionist narratives.

In this case, international intervention is off the cards and it's been left up the Africans who are organising an intervention force. I would guess they're doing it to call bluff on the junta, we'll see.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966769#Comment_120966769

You have to wonder about the Tankies.

As if Gaddafi getting shot like a dog in a sewer pipe wasn't a well-earned act of biblical justice. The "man" was one of the 20th century's most grotesque and depraved sexual deviants and was responsible for unspeakable acts. Before Tankies are tempted to hit reply, know that you're defending one of the sickest people to ever draw breath. All dismissed by Tankies as an odd quirk of his personality because he rattled off boilerplate nonsense about imperialism while wearing a funny uniform. The man himself knew that lot were too easy to get dancing to his tune.

That's not even to mention his unapologetic and open sponsorship of international terrorism, not least on our own island.

SafeSurfer

Bazoum is from the tiny Arab minority and is resented by many in the larger ethnic groups.

After the debacle of Libya, I don’t think the French or Americans have any high moral ground for involving themselves in African internal politics.

The west calling for intervention because of opposition to a coup is so hypocritical to be laughable.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966769#Comment_120966769

The UN Security Council voted for a no fly zone. What happened was NATO backed regime change and the arming of Islamic terrorists by the west.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967224#Comment_120967224

In most cases they used weapons which were from Gaddafi's stockpiles, very few Western or NATO weapons were seen in action in Libya

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966726#Comment_120966726

Only Libya? We can reel off quite a few more countries western intervention went "well" in.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967263#Comment_120967263

Tell us about successful Russian Interventions and occupations of the whole of eastern Europe until recently

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967240#Comment_120967240

The French alone airdropped tonnes of weapons in Libya.

They also had advisors on the ground.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967289#Comment_120967289

They dropped off food and medicines initially but dropped some rifles and ammunition and anti tank to one particular group at the time to defend their area from Gaddafi's forces, but this was done by France off their own back,

For most part NATO did not arm anti Gaddafi's forces,they sized Libyan bases and weapons stores

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967312#Comment_120967312

If you want to classify light tanks as “some rifles” we will have agree to disagree.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-13955751.amp

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967330#Comment_120967330

According to local media light tanks were brought across the border, not seen any photos or Videos

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967224#Comment_120967224

It was a no-fly zone that could bomb the military hardware on the ground, and everyone knew that who voted for it. Problem was, Gaddafi was more tenacious than people expected, and it took longer. Which meant mission creep. Eventually, with a push, the rebels won.

Some Islamists arrived later, but the problem was more the tribalism in Libya which fermented into conflict for control. Again, no one had a crystal ball. It's another lesson into: "don't try to help, just let the people die".

With Syria, apart from some weak attempts at soft arming and Trump bombing an airport, they pretty much had to leave Assad at it, butchering his people, the rebels fought back, it was a bloodbath, then the Islamists arrived and the whole place turned into hell on earth.

Reinforced the lesson of "fucked if you do, fucked if you don't".

The Western world is slowly learning that lesson. Which is why this is now Africa's problem, so we'll see if they can come up with a solution. The tankies don't care how many people die or suffer or are slaughtered as long as none of it is carried out by "the West", I remember that clearly from my days protesting the Iraq war and subsequently.