Niger

lizzyjane

Surprised to see no thread on the goings on the past few weeks in Niger.

Although hardly surprising as the highlighting of western nations wrongdoings against third world countries does seem to be frowned upon in here.

I see Victoria Nuland has recently visited the country to try and tell the Junta in Niger that the U.S doesn't like Coups, perhaps she should have told the truth and said she doesn't like coups that is against her countries interests.

I think its about time African nations are left alone to sort out there own affairs without France, the U.S or Britain sticking their noses in.

mikewest

But Russia scumbag mercenaries good. Feck off with this bull, it's their ECOWAS neighbours who are shouting loudest, and seem ready to do something about it, cause they can see where the real problem is.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962449#Comment_120962449

What are you bringing Russia into it for? This is about a country in western Africa who is been plundered by mainly France who are still acting like colonisers, they dont give a **** about the population of Niger all they want is to rape the country for its resources.

Funny how Niger is the 7th largest supplier of Uranium on the planet but also ranks as one of the poorest nations in the world with nearly half the population live in extreme poverty.

Big Ears

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962563#Comment_120962563

So you're in favour of the Junta seizing power by force and against the democratically elected government ?

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962635#Comment_120962635

Well that is for the citizens of Niger to decide. Not for me or you or any western nation who have a lot at stake financially in the country to decide.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962709#Comment_120962709

So it will be up to the good blokes if it goes t!ts up and relief is needed or people are trying to escape?

Big Ears

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962709#Comment_120962709

Well they did decide, in 2021 when they elected the government.

They'd have gotten to decide again in 2 1/2 years when the next elections were due had the coup not happened.

Are you generally against democracy and elections ?

HalloweenJack

They had a rally the other day in the national stadium and there were plenty of Russian flags on display.

There's no defence for the West's continued exploitation of Africa but you'd be mad to think that Russia are doing it for any altruistic reasons. It also comes as a handy.moment for them to take thr focus off Ukraine.

StrawbsM

https://twitter.com/war_mapper/status/1689736800514748416?s=46&t=IY-y8V-cxTAz1djkZYvB6A

ECOWAS Countries

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962826#Comment_120962826

Most of those countries in the CFA franc zone. I wonder what France has to lose with this Coup, they still colonise these countries but cleverly do it now by proxy with there puppet governments in power.

Time for the people of Africa to be left alone and there own citizens to be put first ahead of the interests of their former colonisers.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962747#Comment_120962747

Half of their budget already comes from Foreign Aid, which some of from the U.S is now been paused because of the Coup.

Hard to understand U.S foreign policy, as they support some coups but oppose others.

https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cypher-ukraine-russia/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308839/niger

No, it's not that simple.

What's happening in the African continent is the modern day equivalent of the scramble for Africa in the past, where major powers attempt to sway their influence. We simply cannot allow Wagner or Russia to hold sway over countries in Africa whenever they so choose. Like a tumour, it will grow and become more of a threat over time. I notice the list of countries you cited doesn't include Russia, and that is telling.

So whilst active interventionism is never an optimum solution, the West should -- insofar as reasonably possible -- ensure that Niger remains under Western influence rather than the necrotic influence that characterises anything associated with Russia.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962894#Comment_120962894

So what Russia doing there

buried

China are all over the Sahel region. Far more than Russia. All this craic in the Sahel is Chinese backed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962945#Comment_120962945

Perhaps had France afforded these countries economic independence instead of keeping them under their economic thumb we could have had a healthy, mutually beneficial, relationship.

Not a single country that uses it wants the African franc.

France keeping the colonial boot on their neck has allowed Russia access to fester.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962998#Comment_120962998

China has been making inroads all over Africa over the last decade, and it's safe to say that there interests aren't humanitarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963009#Comment_120963009

Which is the point.

Do we really want the African continent to become a stinking cesspit of corrupt autocratic dictators, opposed to the West?

Those arguing that, "African countries should choose their own future", simply do not understand that this is not realpolitik. There is an already active influence of China and Russia in African affairs; the tentacles of which root deep. There is no situation in which foreign influence does not exist. It's a geopolitical axiom that cannot be ignored.

Arguing that the West should "stay away" means that this toxic influence will only spread to more African countries over time, which will have a detrimental effect on the West, as well as for ordinary Africans. The latter will be the primary victims of this autocratic worldview. We should oppose it as much as we possibly can.

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963009#Comment_120963009

Exactly. And they are heavily involved in the Sahel region, that part of the African continent has a plenty of raw materials and minerals, but the major resource the Sahel has is a huge natural ground water aquifer. Aquifers that are non existent underneath China's own land territory.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963009#Comment_120963009

If their interests in China aren't humanitarian then obviously they don't give a sh!t about Africans, but they have also been stung badly with infrastructure investments.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963009#Comment_120963009

And Frances are?

Just take a look at the countries in the Central bank of West Africa and compare them to ECOWAS that have given the green light to launch some sort of military intervention over the Coup in Niger. I wonder what % of these countries foreign assets have to be maintained in the French treasury.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-the-france-backed-african-cfa-franc-works-as-an-enabler-and-barrier-to-development/

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963186#Comment_120963186

The French have historical links to Africa where Russian links tend to involve flooding countries which AK-47s , RPGs and tanks, which has led to countless internal conflicts and civil wars under the guise of ending colonialism to aid the spread of communism, or as Putin likes to say special military operations to protect their interests in mines and minerals

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963232#Comment_120963232

Groundhog Day. Yawn!

Big Ears

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963273#Comment_120963273

Well if you're board of talking about Russia's meddling in Africa perhaps you could answer my question from before.

Are you generally against democracy and elections ?;or is there any particular reason you're in favour of a Junta overruling an electorate in their democratically elected government ?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963292#Comment_120963292

Vatnik Putin apologist reduced to eeking out minor psychological wins in a country he hadn't heard of last week, cheerleading a junta that's highly likely getting kerbstomped by other African nations very soon.

Even the bete noir of Kremlinites everywhere, Victoria Nuland, is in on the act. Is there anything she can't do? Weave your State Department black magic Vicci. For it was her voodoo that turned brother against brother in Ukraine, and nothing to do with the fact that 21st century Russia is an irredentist and fascistic toilet (that strangely has a dearth of indoor plumbing).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962563#Comment_120962563

And Russia are in Niger to look after the interests of the Nigerien people.

İt's not that funny; Uranium sells at circa 60 dollars/lb, this double the price in 2019. With the world consuming about 150,000 kilos a year, it's not a huge market, and being the 7th largest supplier doesn't indicate any real wealth.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963292#Comment_120963292

What have the puppet government in Niger done for its population? Why was the coup in Honduras, Ukraine and Pakistan supported by the West in most recent times and this one is frowned upon?

Double standards.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963683#Comment_120963683

There was no coup in Ukraine. Putin flunkie President abandoned his constitutional position by fleeing to Rostov, and the parliament legally removed him, in complete congruence with the Ukrainian constitution. He only changed his mind that he wanted to be President again when the order came in from Moscow that he was to return to Kyiv. You may guzzle dummy Kremlinite propaganda uncritically without checking to see if the croutons in your Vatnik soup aren't pellets of sh*te, but that's not everbody.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963009#Comment_120963009

They're underwriting major infrastructure projects across the continent.

Something the western powers had very little interest in doing, until they realised China were gaining a major strategic foothold in the region which could undermine their geopolitical status as top dogs. Of course China have financial motives, but at least they're giving some respect to a region of the world that has been both deliberately neglected and deliberately plundered by the west.

Keeping Africa poor and dependent on western aid, while pretending you gave a sh!t about development, was a stupid move. It was all based on the assumption that these nations had no other options.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963739#Comment_120963739

There are a huge amount of people in the world who would disagree with you on that.

In fact, much of the global south (since we're on a thread about an African nation) has been heavily critical of the west/nato for it's interference in Ukraine and contributing to the escalation of this conflict. But the west doesn't really care what anyone else thinks.

StrawbsM

I’m struggling to find support online for ECOWAS from the Nigerien (I think that’s correct) people. Lot of hate for the French.

If a majority of citizens are in favour of this coup, who are we to tell them they’re wrong?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963932#Comment_120963932

Not to derail a thread, but who actually escalated the conflict? Enabling a country to prevent itself being destroyed is not "Escalating a conflict".

Just like who escalated the Niger Coup? the democratically elected government supported by countries actually in the region or the Wagner supported Junta?

All this talk "but but but the west did nothing to stop a coup in country x" is just to deflect form the fact that in the region the democratically elected government are recognised as the rightful government of Niger. Its only Wagner backed brutal Mali regime support Niger. "But but but the west..."

HalloweenJack

The continuance of Franceafrique is wrong of course but you can't ignore the role that Russia is playing in stoking tensions. This is not a black and white situation.

The mess in Africa goes back to imperial powers drawing arbitrary lines on maps without consideration for inter-ethnic disputes (or perhaps, very much aware of them and using them to quell disruption during colonisation).

The problems in Mali come from the Tuareg in the north wanting separation from the Bambara in the south. Northern Nigeria is Muslim-majority and the South is Christian. The British stitched the two together and threw the Igbo in for good measure. The Biafran war? Boko Haram? Legacies of imperialism, as is the English-Fremch language conflict in Cameroon. Take pretty much any country in Africa and you can find inter-ethnic conflicts that existed before and during colonialism.

These situations need to be resolved internally and foreign powers, whether from the West or Russia and China need to keep out. The problem of globalisation, legacy investments from imperialism and neo-colonialism make it very difficult for that to happen but neither side should be cheered on for intervening.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963032#Comment_120963032

Which investments to be exact? I thought that loans China issued to other country's had to be secured by assets from the country getting the loan? Use of ports, airports, mines, water, mineral rights etc which China would then "own" for a set nr of years?.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964356#Comment_120964356

If the the thread is about Niger as you suggest, why then are you peddling Kremlinite conspiracy theories about Ukraine unprompted? You did that, and no one else.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963932#Comment_120963932

"There are a huge amount of people in the world who would disagree with you on that."

We call those people Kremlinite QAnon headmelts. Doesn't matter their number or where they're from, they have worms in their skulls. There was no coup.

Dohnjoe

I see ECOWAS have just approved armed intervention and have deployed troops. That should put pressure on the junta (who've been asking Russian mercenaries for assistance)

Big Ears

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963683#Comment_120963683

Did you not say it's not for me or you to determine what government should be in control in Niger, but the Nigerien people ?

Yet here you are questioning the elected government. If they want change then elections in 2 1/2 years time can bring that. If the Junta who are now in control were really concerned with just how things were being ran and not gaining control themselves they could have announced fresh elections........yet they have not.

Perhaps you're not happy with the government here in Ireland. Would you support a military coup for the opposition to take power or do you believe waiting for the next election/pushing for an early election is the appropriate action ?

Or do you generally believe democracy is wrong ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963943#Comment_120963943

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/6/thousands-in-niger-rally-in-support-of-coup-leaders

30,000 supporters in a city of over 1 million does not constitute a majority.

And given that it is a military coup we can forgive people for being reluctant to openly oppose it.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964687#Comment_120964687

The poster thinks the fate of the people of the Sahel is just part of a jolly old game of giving "the West" a bloody nose no matter what the cost. If Africans die or a state collapses into full autocracy backstopped by Russian mercanary scumbags who should be serving their time in Siberian prisons for reprehensible crimes, so what - it's all just part of the loser internet game they play.

France's record in West Africa since decolonisation is a mixed one. For sure, they can be accused of sharp practice in their business dealings on occasion, but they have also in several instances gone to the well to keep many of the states alive as going concerns in the face of massive challenges with jihadism and rolling economic crises. To try to tag them as villains of the piece is rank stupidity. Particularly when the alternative presented is outright rapacious Russian mercanaries with a mafia bent who should be breaking rocks in Yakutsk instead of destroying lives in Africa.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964702#Comment_120964702

That’s true. I’ve just been reading up on Niger. They first become an independent republic in July 1960. July 2023 and this coup has just ended their 7th attempt at being a republic.

I doubt attempt No8 will be their last.

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964388#Comment_120964388

Im sure the people of Niger are more than capable of deciding who they want to have economic relations with, whether that be Russia, China or even Saudi Arabia, as if it had been working out having close economic ties to France they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964842#Comment_120964842

They did decide, they democratically elected Bazoum in 2021.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964842#Comment_120964842

The "people of Niger" haven't decided this course of events, a coterie of military goons with Russian backing have.

Plenty of other African and developing countries are practiced in, and have learned the hard way, about what having closer economic relations with the likes of China means: predatory lending from Chinese state institutions, pork-barrell useless infrastructure projects that generate no returns or productivity to the country for the explicit benefit of Chinese contractors - and punishing repayment terms when the deals go sour.

You're living in la-la land if you think Russia and China offer Africa credible genuine partnerships. The reason dysfunctional African states take on these loans is because unlike the IMF or World Bank, China doesn't come to them with strings attached on governence and anti-graft measures or procedures. Which is entirely the point - it's sweetheart money for corrupt African elites and Chinese contractors, Africa be damned. You're suffering from a ideological psychosis. If the Russian foreign ministry issued a press-release saying the sky is green, you'd be logged-in here within minutes repeating it word-for-word.

You are quite correct, the people of Niger via their democratic institutions are perfectly entitled to choose their economic partners as they see fit, but they have not done so, their institutions have been hijacked by a military junta. The Tankie sleight-of-hand you tried to execute falls apart on this very point.

brickster69

What i can't understand is how did Burkhino Faso, Chad, Mali and Guinea all have a military coup in the last couple of years and no one said anything ?

What is the difference this time around with Niger ?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964842#Comment_120964842

The lessening French influence there allows things like this to happen.

Once upon a time France would have sent in a force and restored the President.

Now it is just heading towards another African semi failed State without rule of law, democratic votes or human rights, all of which are European concepts.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120965737#Comment_120965737

I read about them in the news.

The area is called the "coup belt" for a reason. Most people usually aren't bothered to make a thread about them here unless there's some agenda.

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120965752#Comment_120965752

western ‘intervention’ went well in Libya didn’t it.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/07/libya-un-experts-alarmed-reports-trafficking-persons-arbitrary-detention

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966726#Comment_120966726

Why are Russia there exactly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120965752#Comment_120965752

These countries supposedly gained their independence from France, why is France having any influence?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966726#Comment_120966726

22 countries of the Arab league backed intervention in Libya. Russia and China enabled it by not vetoing it at the UN. So pretty much the world backed intervention there. Didn't work out great, but then there's the case of Syria, which didn't experience the same intervention and turned into the 7th level of hell. So pick your poison.

When Gbagbo in Ivory Coast didn't leave after he lost power, the French (and some others) intervened militarily, and *holds breath*, somehow that **** worked out.

Prior to an intervention it's impossible to know the outcome, but if it's anything less than good, then it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And naturally all the campists on the internet will lose their minds if it's any sort of Western intervention, regardless of circumstances, because the West is the cartoon villain in their reductionist narratives.

In this case, international intervention is off the cards and it's been left up the Africans who are organising an intervention force. I would guess they're doing it to call bluff on the junta, we'll see.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120966769#Comment_120966769

You have to wonder about the Tankies.

As if Gaddafi getting shot like a dog in a sewer pipe wasn't a well-earned act of biblical justice. The "man" was one of the 20th century's most grotesque and depraved sexual deviants and was responsible for unspeakable acts. Before Tankies are tempted to hit reply, know that you're defending one of the sickest people to ever draw breath. All dismissed by Tankies as an odd quirk of his personality because he rattled off boilerplate nonsense about imperialism while wearing a funny uniform. The man himself knew that lot were too easy to get dancing to his tune.

That's not even to mention his unapologetic and open sponsorship of international terrorism, not least on our own island.