Doping megathread - I can't even think of a witty tagline

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910838#Comment_120910838

Yes but Ciccone soft pedalled from the start line to the foot of the KOM so his effort was much shorter, making that irrelevant in the Pog Vs Vinga conversation

at1withmyself

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910955#Comment_120910955

He also blew up once he got to the KOM point so it makes sense he went faster then anyone on the KOM.

Mr. Cats

Really nice interview here with Greg LeMond on Anthony Walsh’s Roadman podcast. I’m generally not a fan of Anthony’s stuff as I find him a bit irritating but, credit where it’s due, this is really good.

LeMond reckons that Froome and Cancellara were motor doping. I don’t know how credible that is but it’s a good listen and LeMond is really affable in general.

https://youtu.be/7xq5PQvBFvI

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910902#Comment_120910902

The WADA code is sufficiently broad in this area that it doesn't need to name specific compounds - the rule is along the lines of " no screwing around with your blood, by either natural or artifical means, including but not limited to these techniques".

As it happens, in 1998 a rider was hospitalised including 3 days in a coma, for injecting himself with a synthetic oxygen-tranporting perfluorocarbon ( If you've ever seen The Abyss, it was the fluid they made the rat " breathe'). That rider is now one of the sports top Directeurs Sportif

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910838#Comment_120910838

So what? He purposefully took it east for the rest of the TT to secure the points.

mewso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911335#Comment_120911335

Yeah LeMond is very likeable. Always was. He talks about Froome's RPMs going up but power staying the same and how that is evidence of motor doping. He doesn't think the current crop are dodgy because the RPMs look realistic but again I'm wondering are RPMs just a sign of motor doping or a sign of other kinds of doping? LeMond seems to suggest it's the surest sign of either.

Whats fascinating is that if Froome really was motor doping then he and Brailsford were very clever to later be talking about how serious an issue motor doping was. They are quoted a few times of saying they had raised the dangers of motor doping with the UCI. Imagine that kind of double bluff if they really had taken advantage of it earlier. Who knows.

Mr. Cats

That would be some double bluff alright. It’s hard to believe that Froome and Sky would be able to get away it given what would be involved to get battery and motor into the frame and how much scrutiny is on yellow jersey.

I enjoyed the bit on Armstrong. LeMonds wry chuckle when asked if they could ever be friends was great. His response when asked about Sean Kelly going quiet whenever doping is mentioned was strong too I thought.

magicbastarder

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/aug/15/former-british-cycling-chief-doctor-richard-freeman-banned-for-four-years

...

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120982459#Comment_120982459

Hopefully a documentary to follow. It’s been a long-winding tale that would be interesting if combined and produced

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120983274#Comment_120983274

Freeman has lost everything. If he wasn't prepared to cooperate with UK Anti-Doping to save not only his sporting career but his entire medical career from going down the toilet, I can't see that he's going to start talking now. Plus its impossible to see British Cycling & Sky / INEOS co-operating with anything that might tarnish the brand.

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120984405#Comment_120984405

They wouldn’t necessarily need to participate.

Even a Dispatches style show documenting the rise of BC and Sky and the riders, with the history of the doctors and other employees would be interesting.

A Netflix style doc with someone like Freeman talking would be the ultimate though

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120984405#Comment_120984405

That's always puzzled me. Someone/ something must have made it worth his while to stay quiet and take the public humiliation and professional disgrace. I can't see how he could ever have thought that cooperating would lead to worse consequences than what was inevitably going to (and now has) happened.

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985647#Comment_120985647

I don't think it was anything in particular, the man had a mental health crisis when faced with the enomirity of what happened and he made some terrible decisions and compounded them by just surrenduring to the sheer chaos of it all in the hope it might end.

Squidgy Black

Hessman tested positive for a diuretic

https://x.com/jumbovismaroad/status/1691849896482013343?s=46&t=EzAvU7O51qn7Pk6HLURULw

dahat

Masking agent so may as well be a PED.

Mr. Cats

Was Freeman an employee of Sky and/or British Cycling at the time? If so, shouldn’t those organisations also be sanctioned?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911335#Comment_120911335

https://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE

This is the video which raised most questions about Cancellara if you haven't seen it.

While not definitive the footage is rather bizarre. Deals with how it's done first and footage from 3.30 in.

Mr. Cats

Cancellera does look like he’s on an e-bike in fairness. Flying up the hill seated, on cobbles, without putting in much effort by the looks of him is quite suspicious.

griffin100

Boonen was certainly not shy in accusing Cancellara of motor doping. Given that we all know what a motor assisted e bike looks like now when it’s motoring that footage is certainly suspicious.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120987547#Comment_120987547

I haven't gone searching other languages but the British cycling media seem very reluctant to ask questions in regards Freeman and the marginal gains that created the "medal factory" or Sky's amazing run of TdF wins with 4 different riders.

Mr. Cats

Here’s a BBC article from a couple of years back - thought this section was decent…

”Brailsford and Peters are yet to comment on the verdict, but Ineos released a statement criticising Freeman, and insisting that it did not believe any rider ever used or sought to use the testosterone. What exactly Ineos believe Freeman did with cycling's doping drug of choice, after having it delivered to the sport's headquarters, remains unclear. 

Maybe it would have helped if Brailsford had been asked to give evidence at the tribunal. In her final summing up last month, Freeman's QC Mary O'Rourke described the Team Ineos boss as "the spectre missing at these proceedings".

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/56384769

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989540#Comment_120989540

The statements I read over the last few days seemed very short and matter of fact surrounding confirmation of his ban.

I suppose I just thought when that day came it would be a much bigger story than it seems to be.

Mr. Cats

Yes, and they nearly all ended with a quote from British Cycling along the lines of ‘this was a lone wolf & doesn’t reflect our values’ ie move along, nothing to see here.

It’s not credible - he was the Chief Medical Officer ffs

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989762#Comment_120989762

Didn't they employ Leiders former Saxo Bank doctor to?

Awful bad luck with these renegade doctors buying testosterone in the hope someone might take it.

Macy0161

I guess after the TUE's and the Jiffy Bag, not to mention Geert Leinders, the clear out when they actually decided to go zero tolerance, they've managed to filibuster it to a certain degree. Even the Freeman revelations have dragged out. It would need Freeman to pull the pin at this stage.

Regarding motordoping - I just find it hard to believe given how many people would need to be involved in a world tour team. It's over 13 years since that Ronde with Cancellera, and no one has anything more than suspicion? In the CX case, there was a much smaller team, and they still managed to get busted!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989904#Comment_120989904

What do you mean "when they decided to go zero tolerance"

They had the "thin blue line" down the kit from day one and sir. Corporate bullsht speak Brailsford always said they were going to do things the right way.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989971#Comment_120989971

I should probably have gone "zero tolerance" - when Yates, Barry, Jullich et al walked the plank. They've been redefining what "clean" is since day 1.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990067#Comment_120990067

My favourite is when they refused to join MPCC because they claimed their own rules were even stricter 🤣

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990130#Comment_120990130

That’s outlandish 🤣

I had forgotten that and that’s why I reckon a documentary is essential. It would piece together a really ugly jigsaw or what Sky/BC really is/was

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993867#Comment_120993867

Not really outlandish. Only about half of the top tier teams are in the MPCC for whatever reason. And several of the teams within it only adhere to the rules when it suits them.

Oh, and one of the original signatories was Gerolsteiner.