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Doping megathread - I can't even think of a witty tagline

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  • 25-07-2023 10:36pm
    #1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    So for many years, initially brought around by legal concerns, we have had a very tight leash on doping discussion. Despite what some might think, this has been in the main to rigidly follow the rules. After several years of no legal action being brought, to the best of our knowledge against any site for discussion in this area, we are now relaxing the rules somewhat.

    The rule was initially two fold, one for the legal aspect and two for the simple fact that doping insinuations ruins discussion as it diverts all discussion down that rabbit hole. To counteract this, any and all doping discussion or insinuation, no matter how mild, will be moved here. If the moderating team, are not sure on whether a post crosses the line, then it crosses the line and gets moved here.

    Rules will be simple, moderation will stick to the base rules of civility and discussion, you must engage in discussion to continue posting and you can't be a d1ck to other posters who disagree with your view. All posts in other threads that even hint at it will be moved over, and if a person continues to post in a similar fashion outside of this thread, it will get a warning/ban as we do now anyway.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Doping megathread-who's pedalling drugs?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,448 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I've got some great gear to sell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,661 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Frederic Grappe, FDJ’s performance director fired a fair few shots in Jumbo’s direction

    "More than the gap between Vingegaard and Pogacar, what challenges is the delta between Vingegaard and the rest," says Frédéric Grappe. With an average speed of 41.3 km/h that day, the double winner of the Tour was 3.4 km/h faster than the third Wout van Aert.

    "If I had an athlete who did this, I wouldn't be comfortable," comments Frédéric Grappe. I would ask myself big questions. Performance goes beyond the measurement error of developed power estimation models."

    "I have more than respect for Jumbo-Visma's work and no doubt about the integrity of Mathieu Heijboer (his counterpart, editor's note) who has a scientific approach," he says. It's up to them to make their own analysis. They know the records of their athlete. If he beat them by 10%, they know it. And it's not possible to beat his records by 10% in a grand tour."



  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭SwissToni


    They’re all at it, close thread.

    I see that the UCI has finally suspended Lopez from racing.

    Post edited by SwissToni on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,614 ✭✭✭happytramp


    This is a great idea. It works excellently with 'the clinic' section of the cycling news forum. It allows discussion without cluttering up every race related thread. 👍



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    Be careful what you wish for. There's a reason that "The Clinic" on CN is known as "the asylum".



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,740 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    To quote Zimmerman “ everything not on the Wada list is legal”.

    Cycling will always need to push boundaries with performance & enhancements so offenders will be found out when something is deemed illegal.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Also my suspicion - Vingegaard is taking/doing something that isn’t illegal yet. We’ll see soon.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Technically Zimmerman is wrong, just to clarify. If it's performance enhancing and was taken for that sole reason, it's illegal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,333 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    "But it wasn't illegal then so we did nothing wrong"



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Exactly.


    It’s like the corticosteroids in the off season. The whole team had asthma!

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    Neither is entirely true.

    The WADA Prohibited List may include any substance and methods that satisfy any two of the following three criteria:

    It has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance;

     It represents an actual or potential health risk to the Athlete;

     It violates the spirit of sport (this definition is outlined in the Code).

    So take the example of caffeine - it is an ergogenic aid, so it meets the first criterion but tends to fall down on the second and third, hence its no longer on the list (at least for the moment - it is currently on the Monitoring list, but you cannot be busted for it).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Apologies but yes, I presume that any unnamed drug that has yet to be added to the list will fall down on the 1st and 3rd. The 1st being obvious as why else take it. The 3rd as you are taking it in a manner to give a performance enhancement that is outside the reach of just training alone, hence falling outside the spirit of the sport (or sport in general). Been awhile since I looked at any of this type of thing so my knowledge is rusty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,773 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    Himself and Pogacar were miles ahead of the rest; with the exception of the TT where Vinegaard was way ahead of Pogacar (who was having a bad day) who also was way ahead of field.

    A lot of Vinegaards advantage was eeked out through improvements unrelated to power.

    Both riders (it appears in the absence of power data) to be at Armstrong/Patani levels of performance for GC days in tour.

    Can improvements in bike design, training methods, nutrition etc explain how clean athletes can do that? I don't know.

    Are they doping out of season and being smarter in racing season? What doctor are they using? How do you keep it under wraps?

    I'm long since over really caring, it's great entertainment either way. Pro sport is the wrong place to look for heroes

    Fcuk it the best interview I've ever read or heard (in any field sport, politics, art etc) comes out of one of cyclings most notorious sons; Kimmage's full interview of Landis. 34 A4 pages of an insight into a most complex human we wouldn't have got without the doping.

    "Say it ain't so Tadej, say it ain't so" I wonder will we have ever utter those words some day



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,773 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I'd quit racing, my blood is 1/3 Tea, 1/3 Coffee, 1/3 liquid to dilute the tea and coffee.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    I wonder if a mandatory Lie Detector Test could catch the majority of dopers?

    Certainly cheaper than labs and the accuracy is claimed to be extremely high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Dopecycle, a pun on Dopesick, was right there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,740 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    That’s me done as well, blood type caffeine currently.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,448 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    lie detector tests are hardly reliable enough to be used in a situation like this, surely? from a quick google, accuracy rates are claimed to be between 80% and 90%, but that is in doubt; and also it has a high false positive failure rate.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,846 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    Ah balls, it's **** Kopecky can't defend her madison title.

    Doping aside, I hope the UCI get over this every world champs at the one time nonsense this year and be fine with it.

    It's too hard for dual riders like Kopecky and Viviani to roll off the road and onto track in such a short time frame. Track is a winter sport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    Yeah you are right. I thought I had read somewhere the test was 95 percent accurate and that a failure would trigger further investigation.There's no easy answer



  • Registered Users Posts: 940 ✭✭✭nicksnikita


    I don’t think such a gap could be as a result of eeking out improvements unrelated to power.

    I’d argue that Pogi did a decent TT and would have taken his finishing time if it was offered to him pre-stage.

    Jonas smashed him by 98seconds over a relatively shot course. There’s a considerable delta in power there.

    Jumbo’s setup is not that much quicker than UAE, if at all.

    The performance definitely raises questions...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I can see why it does but you had one of the two who appeared in good form and was riding conservatively until this day, against his rival who looked wrecked and was attacking all the time. I was more suspicious of how well Pog recovered than JVs performance. Yes there is a huge difference in performance but the question should be, is such a performance possible without enhancements and at this point, I think it is. JV took those descents as a man who had saved all that was possible for this day and this was his A game from day 1, nothing given away until this day.

    This said the weird thing I kept seeing over the tour, other than when Pog dropped him in the last few metres was a few times JV looked like he could come round him and then simply sat up, practically at the line. I found that weird to watch. Not doping related, just bizarre but it could relate to the above point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,773 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    His descending was better, his position on bike was way better, his line through bends was better. Vinegaard was better prepared for TT and was in good form on day. Pogacar wasn't at his peak on day, didn't have TT work done and hadn't studied course as well.

    They are all adding to the time gap as Pogacar was sloppier for all of those.

    He gained time on climbing to but that wasn't what accounted for total gap.

    Whatever questions you have of Vinegaard apply to Pogacar to given gap between them and field throughout the Tour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    That's a fair point. Put another way (and considering the extent to which even club cyclists wet themselves over talk of 'aero') if Pog had been at the top of his game on the day - i.e. not coming out of an injury-hit Tour preparation, not having pushed harder in the preceding stages (as against Vingo who was much more conservative and tended to stay behind his Doms well into almost every stage), and not been flahed looking on the bike for the TT - he'd have been much closer to Vingo. Maybe only lost 30 seconds or so. I think it's fair to say that with the performance Vingo pulled out on the day and given that the stage probably suited him better than Pog anyway, Pog was never going to beat him. Would we then be talking about both riders performances being suspect because they're so far ahead of the other GC contenders and TT specialists?



  • Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    I think they should be ahead of all the other GC/TT riders. No other GC rider has a TT as good as Jonas or Tadej. The Yates brothers aren't bad, but you'd never expect them to trouble the top 2. The course had too many climbing metres for WVA/Cavagna to expect to be up there also.

    The bike change was the wrong call. A road bike would really only be preferred for a short steep section at the start of the climb. I can see that decision costing 30 seconds. You add in how much better prepared Jonas was than Tadej with his descending and his lines that is another chunk of time, and then Jonas was also stronger on the day.

    I think Tadej's time trial was fine. It wasn't great similar to Primoz in 2020 or Geraint Thomas in this years Giro. Visibly suffering and not as smooth/powerful on the bike but still better than the rest of competition.

    If Tadej was on his game and didn't change bikes the gap easily could have been sub 1 minute and then we are talking about 2 stand out performances above all other competitors which both riders were for the entire tour.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    A propos nothing in particular - This graph shows the time gap between Vingo and the other riders on the TT. Apart from both Vingo and Pog being outliers, WVAs performance wasn't that far removed from the riders down to ~ 10th place and, in general, there is a nice steady progression through the field


    This is the equivalent graph for last years ITT, won by Wout. (Note that because of the congestion on the X-axis, only every second name is shown).




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