Doping megathread - I can't even think of a witty tagline

CramCycle

So for many years, initially brought around by legal concerns, we have had a very tight leash on doping discussion. Despite what some might think, this has been in the main to rigidly follow the rules. After several years of no legal action being brought, to the best of our knowledge against any site for discussion in this area, we are now relaxing the rules somewhat.

The rule was initially two fold, one for the legal aspect and two for the simple fact that doping insinuations ruins discussion as it diverts all discussion down that rabbit hole. To counteract this, any and all doping discussion or insinuation, no matter how mild, will be moved here. If the moderating team, are not sure on whether a post crosses the line, then it crosses the line and gets moved here.

Rules will be simple, moderation will stick to the base rules of civility and discussion, you must engage in discussion to continue posting and you can't be a d1ck to other posters who disagree with your view. All posts in other threads that even hint at it will be moved over, and if a person continues to post in a similar fashion outside of this thread, it will get a warning/ban as we do now anyway.

standardg60

Doping megathread-who's pedalling drugs?

magicbastarder

I've got some great gear to sell.

Squidgy Black

Frederic Grappe, FDJ’s performance director fired a fair few shots in Jumbo’s direction

https://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/tour-de-france/2023/tour-de-france-2023-la-performance-de-jonas-vingegaard-et-les-soupcons-de-dopage-en-question_sto9715289/story.shtml

"More than the gap between Vingegaard and Pogacar, what challenges is the delta between Vingegaard and the rest," says Frédéric Grappe. With an average speed of 41.3 km/h that day, the double winner of the Tour was 3.4 km/h faster than the third Wout van Aert.

"If I had an athlete who did this, I wouldn't be comfortable," comments Frédéric Grappe. I would ask myself big questions. Performance goes beyond the measurement error of developed power estimation models."

"I have more than respect for Jumbo-Visma's work and no doubt about the integrity of Mathieu Heijboer (his counterpart, editor's note) who has a scientific approach," he says. It's up to them to make their own analysis. They know the records of their athlete. If he beat them by 10%, they know it. And it's not possible to beat his records by 10% in a grand tour."

SwissToni

They’re all at it, close thread.

I see that the UCI has finally suspended Lopez from racing.

happytramp

This is a great idea. It works excellently with 'the clinic' section of the cycling news forum. It allows discussion without cluttering up every race related thread. 👍

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897476#Comment_120897476

Be careful what you wish for. There's a reason that "The Clinic" on CN is known as "the asylum".

dahat

To quote Zimmerman “ everything not on the Wada list is legal”.

Cycling will always need to push boundaries with performance & enhancements so offenders will be found out when something is deemed illegal.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898549#Comment_120898549

Also my suspicion - Vingegaard is taking/doing something that isn’t illegal yet. We’ll see soon.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898549#Comment_120898549

Technically Zimmerman is wrong, just to clarify. If it's performance enhancing and was taken for that sole reason, it's illegal.

Daroxtar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898650#Comment_120898650

"But it wasn't illegal then so we did nothing wrong"

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899570#Comment_120899570

Exactly.

It’s like the corticosteroids in the off season. The whole team had asthma!

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899097#Comment_120899097

Neither is entirely true.

The WADA Prohibited List may include any substance and methods that satisfy any two of the following three criteria:

It has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance;

 It represents an actual or potential health risk to the Athlete;

 It violates the spirit of sport (this definition is outlined in the Code).

So take the example of caffeine - it is an ergogenic aid, so it meets the first criterion but tends to fall down on the second and third, hence its no longer on the list (at least for the moment - it is currently on the Monitoring list, but you cannot be busted for it).

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899718#Comment_120899718

Apologies but yes, I presume that any unnamed drug that has yet to be added to the list will fall down on the 1st and 3rd. The 1st being obvious as why else take it. The 3rd as you are taking it in a manner to give a performance enhancement that is outside the reach of just training alone, hence falling outside the spirit of the sport (or sport in general). Been awhile since I looked at any of this type of thing so my knowledge is rusty.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898650#Comment_120898650

Himself and Pogacar were miles ahead of the rest; with the exception of the TT where Vinegaard was way ahead of Pogacar (who was having a bad day) who also was way ahead of field.

A lot of Vinegaards advantage was eeked out through improvements unrelated to power.

Both riders (it appears in the absence of power data) to be at Armstrong/Patani levels of performance for GC days in tour.

Can improvements in bike design, training methods, nutrition etc explain how clean athletes can do that? I don't know.

Are they doping out of season and being smarter in racing season? What doctor are they using? How do you keep it under wraps?

I'm long since over really caring, it's great entertainment either way. Pro sport is the wrong place to look for heroes

Fcuk it the best interview I've ever read or heard (in any field sport, politics, art etc) comes out of one of cyclings most notorious sons; Kimmage's full interview of Landis. 34 A4 pages of an insight into a most complex human we wouldn't have got without the doping.

"Say it ain't so Tadej, say it ain't so" I wonder will we have ever utter those words some day

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899718#Comment_120899718

If they list caffeine you're bo11ixed anyway

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900255#Comment_120900255

I'd quit racing, my blood is 1/3 Tea, 1/3 Coffee, 1/3 liquid to dilute the tea and coffee.

CramCycle

Bossuyt gets a positive A and B sample https://www.sbs.com.au/sport/article/kopecky-discusses-worlds-ambitions-as-madison-partner-bossuyt-awaits-doping-verdict/tiyz1yjat

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900255#Comment_120900255

And cake. Don't forget the cake.

cajonlardo

I wonder if a mandatory Lie Detector Test could catch the majority of dopers?

Certainly cheaper than labs and the accuracy is claimed to be extremely high.

nachouser

Dopecycle, a pun on Dopesick, was right there.

dahat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900255#Comment_120900255

That’s me done as well, blood type caffeine currently.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900714#Comment_120900714

lie detector tests are hardly reliable enough to be used in a situation like this, surely? from a quick google, accuracy rates are claimed to be between 80% and 90%, but that is in doubt; and also it has a high false positive failure rate.

eeeee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900594#Comment_120900594

Ah balls, it's **** Kopecky can't defend her madison title.

Doping aside, I hope the UCI get over this every world champs at the one time nonsense this year and be fine with it.

It's too hard for dual riders like Kopecky and Viviani to roll off the road and onto track in such a short time frame. Track is a winter sport.

cajonlardo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901114#Comment_120901114

Yeah you are right. I thought I had read somewhere the test was 95 percent accurate and that a failure would trigger further investigation.There's no easy answer

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900120#Comment_120900120

I don’t think such a gap could be as a result of eeking out improvements unrelated to power.

I’d argue that Pogi did a decent TT and would have taken his finishing time if it was offered to him pre-stage.

Jonas smashed him by 98seconds over a relatively shot course. There’s a considerable delta in power there.

Jumbo’s setup is not that much quicker than UAE, if at all.

The performance definitely raises questions...

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902477#Comment_120902477

I can see why it does but you had one of the two who appeared in good form and was riding conservatively until this day, against his rival who looked wrecked and was attacking all the time. I was more suspicious of how well Pog recovered than JVs performance. Yes there is a huge difference in performance but the question should be, is such a performance possible without enhancements and at this point, I think it is. JV took those descents as a man who had saved all that was possible for this day and this was his A game from day 1, nothing given away until this day.

This said the weird thing I kept seeing over the tour, other than when Pog dropped him in the last few metres was a few times JV looked like he could come round him and then simply sat up, practically at the line. I found that weird to watch. Not doping related, just bizarre but it could relate to the above point.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902477#Comment_120902477

His descending was better, his position on bike was way better, his line through bends was better. Vinegaard was better prepared for TT and was in good form on day. Pogacar wasn't at his peak on day, didn't have TT work done and hadn't studied course as well.

They are all adding to the time gap as Pogacar was sloppier for all of those.

He gained time on climbing to but that wasn't what accounted for total gap.

Whatever questions you have of Vinegaard apply to Pogacar to given gap between them and field throughout the Tour.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902637#Comment_120902637

That's a fair point. Put another way (and considering the extent to which even club cyclists wet themselves over talk of 'aero') if Pog had been at the top of his game on the day - i.e. not coming out of an injury-hit Tour preparation, not having pushed harder in the preceding stages (as against Vingo who was much more conservative and tended to stay behind his Doms well into almost every stage), and not been flahed looking on the bike for the TT - he'd have been much closer to Vingo. Maybe only lost 30 seconds or so. I think it's fair to say that with the performance Vingo pulled out on the day and given that the stage probably suited him better than Pog anyway, Pog was never going to beat him. Would we then be talking about both riders performances being suspect because they're so far ahead of the other GC contenders and TT specialists?

MangleBadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902988#Comment_120902988

I think they should be ahead of all the other GC/TT riders. No other GC rider has a TT as good as Jonas or Tadej. The Yates brothers aren't bad, but you'd never expect them to trouble the top 2. The course had too many climbing metres for WVA/Cavagna to expect to be up there also.

The bike change was the wrong call. A road bike would really only be preferred for a short steep section at the start of the climb. I can see that decision costing 30 seconds. You add in how much better prepared Jonas was than Tadej with his descending and his lines that is another chunk of time, and then Jonas was also stronger on the day.

I think Tadej's time trial was fine. It wasn't great similar to Primoz in 2020 or Geraint Thomas in this years Giro. Visibly suffering and not as smooth/powerful on the bike but still better than the rest of competition.

If Tadej was on his game and didn't change bikes the gap easily could have been sub 1 minute and then we are talking about 2 stand out performances above all other competitors which both riders were for the entire tour.

Mefistofelino

A propos nothing in particular - This graph shows the time gap between Vingo and the other riders on the TT. Apart from both Vingo and Pog being outliers, WVAs performance wasn't that far removed from the riders down to ~ 10th place and, in general, there is a nice steady progression through the field

This is the equivalent graph for last years ITT, won by Wout. (Note that because of the congestion on the X-axis, only every second name is shown).

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903061#Comment_120903061

Yeah, I forgot about the bike change. That's another thing that went against him on the day. All ignoring of course the natural drop off in effort that must occur in the final km of a TT like that where a rider knows that he has nothing left to race for and the dejection must be overwhelming.

It's just a bit mad how far ahead of the rest of the field those two were.

Brian?

While everyone talks about the TT, it’s really the stage after that separates Vingegaard and Pogacar.

Pog clearly went too deep in the TT to put in such a good performance. Anyone arguing that it was a bad performance needs their head examined. The day after he was toast, he couldn’t recover.

Vingegaard beat him by 90s and looked fresh as a daisy the next day

Paddigol

Who said it was a bad performance? Let's just knock that on the head before everyone is dragged down a rabbit hole arguing a point that hasn't been raised.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903437#Comment_120903437

Plenty of people have said it was a bad performance, that he had an “off day” etc. z

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902594#Comment_120902594

Do you remember Indurain or Lemond winning tours? They did exactly what Vingegaard did. Wait out their opponents attacks and destroy them in the TT.

It was only weird because no one has done it for a long time IMO

MangleBadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903608#Comment_120903608

I wouldn't say Pog had a bad performance. But I don't think he had a good performance.

average_runner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903873#Comment_120903873

But yet he was well ahead of third place!!!

There is something new out there in sport in general, performances are improving alot, I know nutrition, equipment and science has helped, but not by such a margin that others can't do it

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903608#Comment_120903608

There's a difference between saying he had an off day - i.e. not at his best - and put in a bad performance. I don't think I've seen any sane person suggest his performance was bad. Plenty - me included - think it was below his optimum. Vingo on the other hand had one of those performances which athletes can produce every now and then where they smash/ narrowly exceed their optimum.

I just think people are putting too much emphasis on one TT stage in the third week of a GT to insinuate dodgy dealings in JV.

MangleBadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904107#Comment_120904107

But there was no other rider there besides Jonas who could hope to match Tadej on such a climby TT. If Remco/Geraint/Roglic were there we would have a better comparison.

Mr. Cats

Just listened to Escape Collective podcast on the TT with Ronan McLaughlin with an aero nerd as his guest. Assuming that JV had one of or the lowest CDA in the Tour, they estimated his power at 390 on flat and 430 on climbs. If he’s 60kg that’s over 7w/kg mid-TT, in the third week of GT.

2011abc

There seems to be an absolute raft of new records being set by irish amateur athletes in recent weeks .Any ideas ?Genuinely curious .

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905128#Comment_120905128

Honestly, we have under invested and under supported in many sports for years and people now have the ability to mimic top class support on their own shoe string thanks to the internet?

Raymzor

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-racing/tour-de-france/tour-de-france-power-the-numbers-behind-vingegaards-tt-and-sep-kuss-on-the-col-de-la-loze/

some data analysis on the TT. Any views on this? 7.5 w/kg!!!!!!!!?

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902637#Comment_120902637

The questions apply to Pog also but Pog has done TTs of that level before whereas this is a new high for Jonas.

As linked above, Vinga’s projected power was calculated to be well above 7w/kg for a considerable part of the TT. From what I’ve read/heard, 7.4 is the figure that’s generally accepted. That’s taking performance to another level and there’s genuine interest to see how’s Jumbo/Vinga have managed it.

When asked, the Jumbo boss Plugge went into defensive mode, deflecting the questions and pointing to the sloppiness of other teams, even remarking that he spotted FDJ on beer beer in their hotel 🤣🤣

Vinga’s Power data from the TT would be helpful but fat chance of that

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906482#Comment_120906482

There is no generally accepted level; you don't know the mass accurately and are completely guessing the power.

Even Ross Tucker who isn't slow to talk about doping calls it guess work.

If we assume he's doping

1. What's he taking?

2. How is he beating testing regime?

I'm not defending him but without the power data and system mass it's guess work.

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906560#Comment_120906560

It is guess work, but educated guess work.

I read that Escape Collective article that Ronan McLaughlin wrote. Very good article. One thing that struck me though, that didn't sit well, was the pacing based on RPE. I call nonsense on this. I just can't imagine a pro cyclist, aiming to win the TdF, not having the wattage he aims to ride at already pre determined for a TT. Jumbo Visma seemingly left nothing to chance so why on earth would he then set off and pace his ride off RPE?

But let's just say they just did that in training and he used power to control his effort in the actual TT. This doesn't sit right either. There is no way a pro rider maintains a pace of 20 watts above his intended target. Vingo said he had a figure of 360 watts in his head for the flat but averaged 380. Surely he must have thought that any prolonged period of effort that's 20 watts above what he thought he was capable of would not be sustainable and he'd have to back off before he tanked?

MangleBadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907508#Comment_120907508

If athletes have a firm understanding of RPE it is probably a better metric as your FTP is static and does not take into account good days / bad days / fatigue etc.

You often see it with powerlifters and what weight they lift on a day to day basis is usually based on RPE as lifting say 80% of your max does not take into account any variabilities.

Jonas was obviously on a great day, if he was a slave to the numbers and backed off to 360 he would be leaving time out on the course.

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907566#Comment_120907566

20 watts is a huge amount though once above threshold, but yes, he was obviously on a great day

JoeFloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905128#Comment_120905128

was thinking about this too. not just TT performances, but general racing seems to be on another level recently. average speeds way up.

Is it the equipment (faster bikes and wheels)? plus riders all having access to better training tools and techniques (everyone coached, power meters, nutrition plans).

21 minutes used to win a 10 mile time trial. now its 18 mins. in fairness, the 21 minute wins are probably 20 years ago. the bikes, gear and positions are definitely way faster. And there's riders who focus specifically on time trials.

Road racing seems to be a couple of Km/hr faster in each category too though. Even club league stuff is off the chart. I know scratch groups averaging 45-48 km/hr regularly for an hours racing.

pretty much zero testing at local races, aside from championship events? I know of a couple of cases in recent times where lads have bought 'supplements' online, and have been tested at events and fallen foul. but is it more widespread?

or am I just getting slower in my old age and everyone else is staying the same speed??

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906560#Comment_120906560

There's no accepted level but there's a known level that has been achieved in the past, for sure. It would be interesting to compare Vinga's TT effort to that.

1) I've no idea. No background in pharma/medicine. Historically, teams have been one step ahead in terms of treatments/methods of administration, though.

2) The testing regime is flawed. Always has been. Riders have a biological passport so their blood levels are tracked over time but at no time are required to provide power data. That doesn't make sense to me.