Asked to return to the office, but caring for older parents at home

lotas

The office has decided they want us back in the physical building. I have been working from home since a week before the pandemic (the daddy was in the hospital and I had to care for the mammy). I have been doing what has been asked of me for the last 3 and a bit years and never had any complaints about performance. all my reviews have gone well and all projects and tasks are completed when required.

They set out a decree about 3 months ago to come back to the office 1 day a week. I said I couldn't and that was it. Now it's been upped to 2 days a week, and HR is now involved and telling me I need to be back.

In the last 3 and a bit years, the parent's health has gotten worse. the daddy had a stroke a couple of years back and seems to be getting worse with his memory and the like, and the mammy has multiple health issues that won't go away any time soon... she also has mobility issues, so some times gets round the hose can be challenging.

long and the sort, even after explaining all this to HR and explaining that I can't spend 10-12 hours a day out of the house (with a commute, etc) and that my job is still doable remotely, they want me to meet in the middle... and come back to the office 2 days a week... (facepalm)

So, what do I do? Who do I need to go to? I have requested a letter from the doctor explaining that I am their carer and that I need to be around. That doesn't seem to have made any difference. I have also explained to HR that I make my time up any days I am missing for an hour or so. If they have hospital appointments, I work from the coffee shop in the hospital and make up the time during the evening. If I need to be in the office to set up laptops or whatnot for new hires, I get it done at the weekend, before the new hire starts. All management of machines is done remotely. They tell me that they don't want me to be working extra hours, and to take care of myself... but don't mind me spending upwards of 3 hours stuck in traffic or worrying about my parents at home... (facepalm)

So, I am trying to find who I need to get in contact with, other than a better employer, that can help. Thanks.

Stheno

What does your contract say about your work location?

lotas

my contract was written 13 years ago... before the right to request remote work kicked off... it says the office.

KaneToad

I think your only option is another employer, unfortunately.

I also think your employer is being very short sighted if your performance is as you state.

Employers talk about mental health, healthy work/life, employee well being etc but it's all box ticking. You are a product for them, you are selling your labour. Don't take it personally, just find a solution that works best for you and your family.

RedXIV

Is there a reason you don't want to look elsewhere for a job?

The Nal

So you're the companies IT guy. Laptops, MS licenses, security etc. Did you explain the concept of "the cloud" to them?

A lot of places have targets in place now for people in the office. x amount of staff etc so maybe not a lot more you can do there.

Theres a ridiculous amount of jobs out there at the moment for you. Get a new job! Or get an offer and then go back to your current crowd with it.

Stheno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721475#Comment_120721475

Time to look for a new job so

lotas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721487#Comment_120721487

I am a DevOps engineer... i work with clients and the dev/test env (we are a dev house). I managed all the servers, none of which are physical any more... one of the big brains had the idea that the reason to be in the office was to have 1 on 1s with your manager (mine is in a different country) and team meetings (most of my team are in other countries too). All our infra is in the cloud. All our work is done in Azure. these people arent the smartest tools in the lunch box...

lotas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721498#Comment_120721498

i think so...

lotas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721479#Comment_120721479

laziness... I like most of the people, and the work is interesting... some of the people, not so much, and the wage could be better, but, as i said, the work is interesting.

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721516#Comment_120721516

Change your linkedin to open to work and see what happens. Give it a few days.

28064212

Have they said "you have to return to the office, or else you'll be fired"? Remember, HR and/or managers may not want you working remotely, but they also definitely don't want to have to fire you and hire someone new, which is disruptive, costly and risky. By all means, start putting the feelers out for a potential job move, but I certainly wouldn't be resigning from a job you like. Just politely refuse all requests to return to the office and continue to complete your work. At some stage, they will have to weigh up which path they want to go down. If they do decide to fire you, they will have to go down the proper route, disciplinary procedures, full notice etc.

RedXIV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721516#Comment_120721516

Fully get that, it may take the threat of "if I come back, I will leave" being spelt out to them. Unfortunately if you're dealing with folks this caught up in bureaucracy already, there's a good chance they won't back down. So I would do as others suggest, as soon as you have the conversation, put up looking for work on linkedIn and start talking to recruiters. A good devOps engineer will find work.

bucketybuck

Respectfully, you are acting as if the fact your parents are old means you should be allowed to set your own employment status, and seem confused that your employer doesn't understand that and you want somebody else to come along and set them straight. But it just isn't the case. Your employer is not responsible for your personal life or what happens outside of work.

Acting as a carer for two people is effectively another job, so in essence you are telling your employer that you want to work remotely so that you can do another job at the same time as the one they are paying you for. I mean, do you think they would hire somebody who told them up front that they weren't going to do their work during their contracted hours, but would try to squeeze it in at weekends or while waiting in a cafe? Is that really what they signed up for?

Basically your entire OP boils down to a simple concept, it doesn't suit you to work in the office and you don't want to do it. So you do what anybody in that situation does, find another job that does suit your circumstances.

Or you can talk to your employer and try to reach a compromise, but I would advise a different approach than trying to force them into letting you do whatever you want.

I know you probably don't want to hear any of this but so be it, I just know as an employer that if a staff member said he/she was too busy with other things to come into the office one day a week, it would be remiss of me as a manager not to question if we were getting what we paid for.

Former Former Former

I think you have to leave. I understand your perspective about maintaining your performance, but look at it from the company's side.

Looking after elderly people is a time-consuming and exhausting job, but you're telling them that being primary carer for not one but two elderly parents won't affect your work? If, as you say, they're only going to get worse, then they'll take up more and more of your time.

To answer your question - there is no one to get in contact with. It's not an unreasonable request from your employer if they're offering to let you WFH 3 days a week.

You either go back to them again and try to negotiate again, or you comply with the request, or you quit.

Deeec

OP I think you just need to reach a compromise and go to the office 1 day per week or 2 days per month etc. As your manager I would be concerned if you are refusing to come to the office at all and nobody has seen you for 3 years! I would also be concerned that if your parents need so much care and cant be left alone ( or with a carer) for 12 hours, then how are you actually performing your job at all with such huge demands. It does sound like your job is actually understanding of your situation in that a chunk of your day must be taken up with caring duties - a new job may not be that understanding.

Could a carer/relative/neighbour not stay with your parents or check in on them during the days you are in the office?

I also think you need to ask yourself are you looking for excuses not to go the office - I do really think you could make it in if you really wanted to.

doc22

You had 3 years to sort something out. 2 days in office seems very reasonable. There's home helps available from the HSE and carer allowance if you want to take up a full time caring role. It isn't isn't the employers resonsibilty. Sure most eldery parents would have memory problems and mobility issues, HR can't have employees creating new policies to suit themselves. The fact your position is Dad needs care and if any happened to him Mum needs care too so I'm not returning to office indefinitely isn't really a sustainable position no more than some who had a baby/childcare dictating when they will return to office. I'm sure hospital appointments can be done on WFH days.

AlanG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721510#Comment_120721510

Most big tech and cloud providers are getting their staff in several days a week. Despite what they sell they know that in general remote working is worse for continuous improvement, innovation, knowledge transfer and mentoring. It's not just about doing your tasks, you need to be able to outline what improvements, innovations etc. you have added to the company in the last 3 years. In ICT if the staff are not innovating the company will die.

Then you need to give them some more so that management believe it is worth the staff management hassle of dealing with other workers who don't feel you should get special treatment.

Other than that, get another job and hand in your notice, letting them know it is down to the remote working issue. If you are valuable enough they will give you what you want.

The other thing I would say is be careful what you tell HR. If you are remoting onto client systems from a coffee shop then you are most likely in breach of the contract between the client and your company and also the health and safety regulations of your company. Once you tell them you reguarily work from a location regularly then they have an obligation to ensure it is a safe workspace or you could sue them. It is not as straightforward a matter as you may think.

kirving

The issue IMO isn't work from home per se, it's that your entire reason for doing so is that you need to do other things during he day, during work time.

Your manager and HR,

A) have a duty to ensure that they're getting good value for their money. There must be times that you are not available due to care you need to provide.

B) that you're not overworked - be that from your 9-5, or a second job. They are required to do this by the Working Time Act. Providing care to such an extent that you physically need to be there five days a week, is a second job.

Now that you've told your employer your reason for the WFH request, they cannot let it go for the above two reasons.

Would you consider a compromise? Drop to 3 days per week maybe, or 60% of your hours in the office and avoid some traffic?

Mrs OBumble

Sounds like you should be on Carers Allowance.

magicbastarder

i've no experience of the job market for the last couple of decades, were you to look for another job; but how many companies would be OK with 'i'm starting as a new start and don't want to have to come into the office at all' during contract negotiations?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721719#Comment_120721719

As someone who moved from 1 100% WFH job to another in a new company, this was my first demand before accepting any offer. 100% WFH.

Oscar_Madison

Some excellent “clued-in” comments on this thread OP. I have an additional one:

The Future?

Your parents are not in good health and from what you describe may deteriorate further. The heart of the issue is not your work right now- the real issue is the future care of your parents. Sorry but that’s how I’m viewing things- there will come a day and possibly very soon that working and caring for your parents will become impossible and professional assistance will be required.

Your employers are in some ways trying to get you to face up to that - if it’s only 2 days a week in the office, that’s very reasonable - you could of course leave and get a 100% remote working job but you will still have the caring challenge - I wish you the best of luck but I urge you to reach out to the medical services in your area and start considering options for the care of your parents- it takes months to get even the simplest of support in place- I’ve been there done that many times with my parents and other elderly relatives- I don’t envy you right now but you need to start building a care structure of people and resources around your parents because very soon you won’t be able to cope.

I think the “mistake” might have been to mention the situation with your parents and I wouldn’t mention it to a new employer either. The view an employer takes is, as somebody said, you can’t do two jobs at the same time, and caring is a demanding job. DevOps people are in great demand, you’ll get into a fully remote job quite easily and hopefully one you will like and find equally interesting. There’s so many developments in your area that it is bound to be interesting!

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301141/asked-to-return-to-the-office-but-caring-for-older-parents-at-home

How would you handle this situation pre-covid?

That might be your answer

lotas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721783#Comment_120721783

pre covid, I had a different manager, a different overall HR group, and different MD... things only changed during covid... before it, it was only a week or 2...

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721736#Comment_120721736

yes, but how many companies are OK with it? we know it worked for the company you moved to, but is it generally tolerated?

ELM327

I was applying for and interviewing for multiple roles and all were ok with 100% WFH.

HildaOgdenx

I think your best bet is to try to compromise, if you like the work you are doing. Come to an agreement about days in the office and days wfh.

You also have to think about your own health. You are in effect, doing two jobs at the moment and that isn't sustainable long term.

Your parents health longterm has to be taken into consideration too. Maybe have a look at the Carers thread and see where to begin sourcing some help.

https://www.boards.ie/categories/carers-caring

dingding

Best of luck with the job search. You are better working for a company where WFH is the accepted norm. THe current situation will always be stressful as HR rules etc.... change over the coming years.

There will probably be ongoing resentement from team members who have not got the concession and see from their perspective equally valid responsibilities. Child Care etc....

It sounds lake there has been a change in management over the past few years and all flexibility and common sense has gone.

lotas

I a uple of things after reading through the threads, but can'I can'tly to all:

1: yea, caring for them is challenging, but not 100% of my time... 99% of the time, they are grand on their own, it's the 1% of the time when they or I need to do something that is the kicker... working from the office is, in Dublin traffic, at least an hour away. something happens in the house, it's an hour before I get there... if I'm in my home office, it's 1 min, at most. I sort out their tablets in the morning and help the mother out of bed before starting work, make them a cup of tea, etc, but all before work. During the day there is a medical procedure that needs to be done, but that's done at lunchtime. the only time during the day I am "missing" is hospital appointments and i am still online during that time and can work from a coffee shop. at most i am "missing" for 30 min during the drive to and from the hospital.

2: already started looking for remote work. a good few options are showing up on LinkedIn.

3: for the carer's allowance, you need to work less than a given amount of hours. I'm doing a whole week, so I am not eligible for it...

4: on the compromise, they want 2 days a week. I suggested i could try get in a few hours for 1 day a week... they compromised and said 2 days a week... Yea... meeting me halfway by getting what they want.... hence the active job hunt...

Apiarist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721705#Comment_120721705

Woah, the whole of €354 a week caring for two people? Compared to the after tax weekly income of €1000+ in an IT job?

doc22

I'm afraid there compromise is 2 out the 5 days they could request you in .The tablets, tea and getting out of bed can be done by home helps. But I do wonder the difference between your helping them with tea,bed,tablets and what the can't do i.e your implying they can't feed themselves? can't get out bed? can't walk? can't take basic medication. But the "99% of the time, they are grand on their own." implies they can get about,feed ,clothe themselves and get to toilet ? At which point the I can't work two days because I have to help the parents sounds rediculous

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722040#Comment_120722040

If I was getting a 1000 euro's after tax I wouldn't be questioning to my boss when I could come to office. Carers would be decided by the parents needing 24/7 care not "99% of the time, they are grand on their own."....

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721999#Comment_120721999

I get you want to WFH but in fairness most jobs would require to see you in person even a few times a year. There are very few jobs that are 100% WFM and where you never have to meet anyone face to face. So looking for another job isnt an option I think - you very well could find yourself in worse situation.

OP do you not have some sort of help or support in caring for your parents? There is nothing you have mentioned here that would stop you from going to the office for a day or 2 - in fact it would probably do you good to get away from parents for some time. Tablets and cup of tea could still be done before you go to the office. Home help could help your mum get out of bed and dressed - you should have this support already, medical procedure at lunchtime again a carer or district nurse could call to do this. In the event of an emergency can you not call on a neighbour or someone in the event of something happening.

Do you ever get free time to yourself - you really need to get support or your situation is not sustainable.

lotas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722093#Comment_120722093

they want 2 days... they asked to meet halfway. The halfway is... 2 days... not 1, which I would think is halfway, but the full 2... as for the caring, yea, they can get around, but it's leaving them for 10-12 hours a day on their own... an 8-year-old can get themselves out of bed, get around the house, feed themselves, etc, but would you leave an 8-year-old on their own all day?

lotas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722134#Comment_120722134

few times a year, I have no problem with it. i can arrange something for that. i could even try 1 or 2 days a month, but 2 times a week, every week, with no flexibility, that's my issue... they are claiming that it's flexible... but their compromise is I still need to come in...

got my feelers out for a new job already... it's not worth all this crap at this stage...

bucketybuck

Their issue is that they wanted only one day a week and you wouldn't do it. Frankly that was foolish, you should have given them the bare minimum they asked for and avoided the escalation, because clearly it made them look at the situation and see what was really happening.

Mrs OBumble

If the mother needs help getting out of bed, then how does she toilet herself during the night? Either she doesn't, in which case there's a heap more caregiving work to be done, or the OP is also getting broken sleep, which isn't a sustainable arrangement for work.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722337#Comment_120722337

No nobody would leave an 8 year old home alone - parents pay someone to look after their kids while they are at work. Parents cant use their kids as a reason why they can never to go the office - likewise you cannot use your parents as a reason why you never can go to the office.

screamer

Ok gonna be blunt, your employer doesn’t pay you to mind your parents. I imagine that returning to the office is more of a case that getting people to return to the office needs to be fair and equitable, not making special accomodations for people. It’s amazing how the injustice is felt when rules don’t apply to everyone equally. Someone else will say hey I’ve to look after my kids, someone else might say I’ve no parents or kids but I need to take care of my pets. Where does it end? And ask yourself, if there was never any remote working what would you have put in place for your parents care? Anyways, as dev ops looking for a new job is no bother there’s lots out there, but increasingly employers are not fans of remote working anymore.

Before I say anything, I am fully supportive of 100% WFH roles.

Having said that, I think OP, that instead of trying to avoid going into the office, and looking for a new job, you need to look into putting some other options for the care of your parents in place on the days you have to go into the office.

As they age, their needs are only going to increase. Best to start planning for that now.

13 years in a job you like is a lot to throw away, and your current employers know you, which means they may be more open to flexibility around your parents increasing needs, if you need to switch days, or take a few hours for a hospital appointment.

A new employer doesn't know you, and won't care about your responsibilities at home.

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722337#Comment_120722337

But they don't have the mind of an 8 year old,unless both have dementia I’m unsure In what way you need to watch them. If anything happened(i.e a fall) why couldn’t they call an ambulance. 

But even with the child analogy I can’t see any employer accepting a parent with an 8 year child saying I’m working home full time now to an employer regardless on the employers own policies. No one irreplaceable, and most people with caring responsibility accept this.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722337#Comment_120722337

They asked for one day initially but you didn't engage with that from your posts above. So you weren't willing to meet half way at the time. So complaining now that they wont meet you half way seems a bit strange.

I know in my work from home agreement it states that i cannot use that to mind people. There has to be someone else there as a caregiver. 99.9% of the time that is to stop people childminding but i assume they cannot just say child as that is discrimatory.

You have now admitted to your company that you are using company time to take care of your parents. You work from coffee shops during working time as you are running errands, and that you work weekends extending your working week.

To be honest id say you need to leave. I would expect your company to get a lot stricter with you going forward.

BalboBiggins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722040#Comment_120722040

Mrs OBumble is almost certainly being facetious here. They like to come into every work thread and bootlick employers.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722337#Comment_120722337

Your line manager should play a key role here. Have an open discussion, pointing out how good you are at your job, the futility of working in the office for your particular role and highlight the need for flexibility. You won't get full time WFH, as that would open up all kinds of questions for others in the organisation. You might get it down to 1 day a week initially, with possible improvements over time.

Either you can live with that, or you need to start job hunting.

munsterfan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721719#Comment_120721719

We have been hiring dev-ops wherever we can get them, Irelan, eu, brazil, all 100% remote.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722040#Comment_120722040

They can also work up to 18.5 hours per week and earn up to €350 net of PRSI pension contributions and keep all of the carers.

Carers includes the €1850 x2 Carers Support Grant in June and Free Travel so it’s actually quite good.

As the OP is living at home I assume that there is minimal rent if any at all.

Their employer doesn’t have to accommodate them to the extent they appear to think they are entitled to be accommodated at all, and no, there’s nobody out there to put the employer “in their place”.

They can try and make a complaint to the WRC though on which grounds I’m not sure, and the WRC may offer mediation but it’s not going to happen any time soon.

I know there’s likes of NordVPN and other encryption measures to help allay security worries when using a public Wi-Fi network, but I don’t imagine all employers are keen for employees to be doing any kind of sensitive work through such. Hackers have been known to create fake WI-FI, but I’m sure OP is very aware of this. Cybersecurity is a crucial aspect of any company’s operations.

fits

Carers allowance is means tested. You might get carers benefit for up to two years per parent and that’s not means tested.

martingriff

For the posters who are saying time to get a new job. It maybe hard to get a job full time at home or full time at the very start