Asked to return to the office, but caring for older parents at home

witchgirl26

OP you might want to check your contract before you push back on your manager. Mine has a specific clause (& it was well before Covid) that says I can't be responsible for or caring for another person, adult or child, if I am working from home. Now in emergency circumstances where my son is sent home from creche, my boss doesn't mind that but I would be in breach of my contract if I took him out of creche completely. Ultimately what you have said to your employer about not coming in & the reason is giving them the impression that you are providing such a level of care for your parents that you can't come into the office for 40% of your working week. That would cause them a level of concern.

I mean from the employers perspective, what would happen if there was something urgent at work & if your parents needed you at that time. As a person, I completely understand where the priority would lie but your employer, while possibly sympathetic, doesn't pay you for that.

I know in my company there are a couple of people who are only coming in 2 days a week (we're meant to be 3) but that was after engaging positively with the business about their specific circumstances. It sounds like you haven't done yourself any favours by not engaging with them when they first wanted people to come back to the office.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120738133#Comment_120738133

 but they have said they don't want anyone up full-time.

What they want, is superceded by what they NEED.

If they can't look after themselves independently, then they need someone checking in on them.

If you're working full time, that person doing the checking can't be you (whether that's in your current job, a new role, whatever......you can't be both on-call with your folks and in work at the same time. No sane employer would ever agree to this).

If you can't do it, someone else has to.

I know how stubborn people can get, especially those of previous generations with all their hangups about carers and nurses and everything that goes along with that. But the truth remains. If they can't look after themselves, someone has to look after them. If you're working, that someone cannot be you.

It's a nettle that's best grasped soonest, I've found.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120738133#Comment_120738133

It's rare that I would need to "be there" but it's a comfort that I am close to them in the house IF needed.

That's a big IF.

So the truth is, you're not really needed at home full time, and if there are carers already involved in coming in to look after your parents, then that needs to be extended to cover for the days you have to work from the office.

I think you are in danger of overplaying your hand here, and the company will manage you out, if HR are already involved.

A new employer may not be any more favourable then the one you already work for. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Thoie

I started working from home full time about 13 years ago. One of the things that was made very clear to us at the time was that "WFH is not an alternative to childcare". Similar goes for any caring commitment I suppose. During covid, the lines got blurred for a lot of people, as there were no alternatives. However in general you should always think of working from home as still your full time job, and arrange the rest of your commitments as if you were physically in an office.

WFH absolutely gives you the flexibility to take care of dressings, etc, during lunch hour, and helps cut down on the commute, but you still need to have a set up in place that would work if you weren't around. WFH has allowed me to move closer to my parents, and on rare occasions to help out with things like hospital visits. But primarily that makes things easier on me, in that I don't have to take a few days to travel to them.

In the childcare example, the original expectation was that if you previously needed a childminder to, for example, collect a 4 year old from pre-school after lunch, and mind him for the afternoon, then that arrangement would continue.

As your parents get older, regardless of where you're working, you'll need to come up with a plan, with their agreement. Perhaps it might be a neighbour they can trust and will call if an emergency happens while you're an hour away. Maybe it's additional caring hours. Maybe it's you working x days a week. As unpleasant as it is, it's a conversation you need to have sooner rather than later.

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721584#Comment_120721584

Theres a lot of these type comments in this discussion that i feel i need to call out as nonsense.

Caring for people happens across a lot of people in a company. Parents care for kids, People care for their parents/ elderly relatives all the time.

Its not a second job in the sense of employment, so does not count towards working time act as one poster claims. People get broken sleep all the time...try having new borns/young children.

People have a life outside work and work is not the be all and end all of life - no matter what the company says.

OP- my suggestion to you is to refuse point blank to return to the office. say its not feasible and that the company were happy with the wfh arrangement during covid, you've proven the work can be done remotely and that you intend to keep that arrangement into the future. They then need to either accept this or let you go.

Also look at policies around carer leave/caring for relatives. Look at any and every "we're a family" type claims from the company and throw it back at them. Guilt them into copping on.

In the meanwhile start looking at other remote roles.

And look after your parents as much as you can, while you still have them. They won't be there forever and you'll regret giving up time to help them for work in the future.

DownByTheGarden

My company have decided that that they are going to ramp up the days people have to be in the office for the rest of the year to get it to 4 days a week by the end of the year. I have no doubt it will be 5 days sometime in the first half of next year too.

A good few people threatened to leave and some of them that they want to keep have been offered one day less per week in the office. So some have gone for that but some havent and have left or are looking now.

The company have their reasons so they are going to stick to their guns no matter what. Unless enough people leave, which i dont think will happen. Im finishing up myself anyway for other reasons but this did play into my decision too.

Lots of companies now are actively making the move back to the office slowly and thats just the way its going to be. I can even see big office buildings all around my office starting to open up again and fill up over the last few months.

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753148#Comment_120753148

And I feel the need to call this out as nonsense.

Yes people care for people all the time but not when they're trying to do their job full time. As mentioned, it may even be in your contract that you're not allowed to be responsible/caring for another person while working from home. It's expected you do this on the time you are not working.

No it doesn't count towards the working time act. Because it's not meant to be done as part of your job (unless you're an actual employed carer). Yes people with children get broken sleep but my employer doesn't care about that & I'm still expected to do my work during the day regardless of that.

Work is not the be all & end all of life but if you're employed to work between 9am & 5.30pm then you have essentially sold those hours to the company you work for and in return you get a salary. You don't get to dictate to the company that you've signed a contract with that you are going to do other work (caring for a parent or child is work) during that timeframe. No matter what someone on the internet says.

If you point blank refuse to go back to the office, you could get fired. It is a possibility. Companies are under obligation to review the ability to allow work from home but they are not under an obligation to provide it because it suits an employee better. And if they've decided that getting everyone into the office in order to aid collaboration (which btw does happen better in person. I work remote from my team as they're in another country and we get a lot more done when we meet in person than over Teams) then you don't get to opt out completely because it doesn't suit.

As for the family friendly policies - you'll see then mainly are around recognising people's right to finish on time, flexible hours so that people can start early & finish early in order to collect from childminders/creche or to facilitate visiting hours for a nursing home, hospital or hospice.

I totally agree on spending as much time as you can with parents. I lost my dad 15 years ago. There was no real remote working available to me at the time but work did give me the flexible hours so that I could visit him in the hospice & facilitated a few other things.

Flinty997

Ultimately your parents will only need more support going forward and you can't do both for ever. It's just being forced on you early. But it was always going to happen. Changing job will only put that off temporarily.

I know a few people with 100% WFH jobs, some had them before lockdown. They do exist.

Many places are reducing WFH. Ultimately for no reason other than to micromanage.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120757459#Comment_120757459

At the moment, lots of places are reducing WFH because they know it will make some people leave, and that reduces the company's redundancy liability.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120755085#Comment_120755085

Excellent post here. Hits the nail on the head.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120757689#Comment_120757689

Thats nonsense, how its approach is often the key, a family member went back as requested which was 1 to 2 days a week same for all in her office within two months all were back working remotely except for those who choose to go in, now she does go in occasionally but it's at her own choosing the point is she never demanded full-time remote and is always flexible that is the difference. The OP must know that the home situation is not going to change and is only going to deteriorate they are better off facing up to that now and sorting something out.

An employer is entitled to be unhappy at using a baby monitor in their home office to keep an eye on primary-aged children while working remotely and not having any childcare or any similar arrangement such as looking after parents, if you are working you are working and can not also mind small children, older teenage children are different.

Parents need to learn to accept help from non-family members.

You say a carer comes in daily but they don't want anyone more often than that so you have to take up the slack i.e. your parents are putting the pressure back on you.

TBH, the employer offer of one day per week was reasonable and you should have accepted it. Certain arrangements would have had to be made but it would impose more routine on the situation and let your parents get used to a gradually changing schedule.

If you don't want to leave, I'd go back to the employer and ask is their one day a week offer still an option. I know they said it wasn't but worth trying.

doc22

Meh,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120739587#Comment_120739587

The state is more then likely paying for the care, any more would be coming out of their own pockets and if they needed 24/7 care they'd be put in a home.

But to be honest I feel the OP is using the parents as an excuse not to come to office and is wondering how to play his hand(i.e does he say he does everything or do nothing) with a home help in twice a day(not mentioned in his intro at all) and the parents can get around with basic needs the IF needed at home sounds like a lame excuse . Even accounting for 2 days in office they'll be there nearly 90% of the time with parents anyway.

...Ghost...

OP, sounds like you just got too comfortable working from home. You're not needed there and the feeling of comfort is something you'll have to think about and decide if it's worth digging in your heels about. The smart play here is to agree to 2 shorter days per week in the office...an hour late in and and hour home early to skip the traffic. This will effectively knock 2 days per month off your work, so you'd have to offer that back to them perhaps in the form of 1 Saturday per calendar month, or something along those lines. Be creative and engage with them without being disingenuous or defensive.

lotas

Be creative and engage with them without being disingenuous or defensive.

I tried... I said I could try to get in 2 days a week, but would only get in around 11 to 3. I would work extra hours before and after... they decided to "meet me halfway"... they want me in 2 days a week, full time, and now want me to take holiday days if I have doctor or hospital appointments... I told my manager to sort it out, or else... and haven't heard anything from HR since... my linked in profile is updated and found over 100 jobs available for fully remote in my field... I'm gone past defensive and am close to going offensive now...

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800117#Comment_120800117

The holiday days for doctor/hospital appointments is probably standard. I know that unless I can get it done in my lunchtime (or start early/leave early), I do have to take days off for it. Again, they're not paying you to attend to your appointments & things you need to do, they're paying you to work. 11 to 3 isn't really working the 2 days though. Most places would have core hours of 10-4 at the least. I know with us that is the case. My boss doesn't mind what time we start or finish as long as we're there between 10 & 4. 11-3 with an hour for lunch is only 3 hours work out of a 7.5 hour work day. That's not even a full day in the office a week so I'm not surprised they said no. I'm not sure what you expect your manager to do.

Fair enough if you want to leave & go to a roll that's officially fully remote but still remember there could be clauses about caring for others while working which is what you are essentially looking to do. It's actually something that I've seen being especially highlighted for permanent work from home jobs because of higher likelihood that people would be trying to use it to cut down on childcare especially but also caring for others.

Beechwoodspark

OP I will keep this short as you have been kindly given some fantastic and informative advice during the course of the thread. We hope you appreciate the time and effort ppl have put in, to give you some advice and guidance.

I would say that if your employer persists and requires you to be present in the office (assuming they are covered legally in your contract) - then it might be time for you to consider employing home help (maybe HSE an option?) and then get looking for another role that allows you work from home if that is what you require at this point in your life.

dingding

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/07/03/provisions-relating-to-breastfeeding-at-work-and-leave-to-help-with-medical-care-take-effect/

Just saw this article. Five days unpaid leave to bring sick house mates and relitives to appointments.