E10 Crap

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974859#Comment_120974859

I've a few bikes that age.

No starting issues with them but I won't be leaving fuel in the ones I won't use over winter.

mikeecho

So, got petrol yesterday in a Jerry can.

Did a quick test with the 100ml petrol+ 20ml water in a graduated cylinder, mixed well, and left sit overnight.

5ml of ethanol.

E10 is still only E5

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981494#Comment_120981494

You reckon you got it all?

Someone told me before you'd be doing well to get 60% efficiency.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985483#Comment_120985483

I don't understand.. what's 60% about

I didn't remove anything, I just added water to expose how much ethanol is in the fuel labelled as E10.

10-10-20

60% of the ethanol bonding with water and adding to the water volume at the bottom of the graduated cylinder with the remaining 40% staying in suspension.

So it's a good test, but it's not the true representation of the mixed volume of eth to petrol.

https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/University_of_California_Davis/UCDemos/Change_in_Volume_H-Bonding_%28Ethanol_and_Water%29

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120986170#Comment_120986170

I understand.

I got a good mix, by inversion, and was let sit for 24hrs+

I've seen similar tests on YouTube,

I'm satisfied that it's 5% ethanol

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120986459#Comment_120986459

Let's thank the stars we are not yet at Brazil's standard.

E25 there I think 🥵

Hotblack Desiato

Makes sense over there when you can get 2 crops of sugar cane a year.

They've been running adapted cars on pure alcohol there since the 70s.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120986170#Comment_120986170

Ok.. I actually only read that now.. that seems to say that if your just add water, the result will be not be complete seperation.

I mixed the 100ml petrol and 20ml water by firstly, injecting the 20ml water with a syringe (forcefully), then mixing by repeated inversion.

Then let sit for 24+hrs.

Personally I'm satisfied that the fuel I got that was labelled E10, only contains 5%

Previously E5 was actually 3% , they use double counting

Double counting is where the E content is on its second life.

A very simple example would be:

If you added 5% fresh veg oil to diesel, then it would be B5

However, if you cooked some chips in veg oil, then added that same oil to the diesel, the veg oil is on its second life, thus has a double value, so the diesel would now be B10.

It took me a while to figure out what double counting was... But that's a very simplistic example.

Similar is done with ethanol for petrol.

iceman700

I have a classic motorcycle from 1981, went for a spin last Sunday 3rd of Sept, only take it out maybe once a month, I had only put E10 in it, for the first time, the previous run a month earlier. As soon as the E5 was used and E10 entered the engine it started surging, then loss of power, until it died altogether. No way would it start and had to call a recovery truck to get it home.

Just to make sure I stripped the carbs, perfectly clean.

I contacted classic bikes U.K. they told me, they tell their customers not to touch ethanol fuel, period, E5 or E10.

They recommend their customers use, R type storage fuel or Aspen 4, the former mixes better with other petrols.

Unfortunately I don’t think you can get the R type here, that leaves us with Aspen 4, which means biking just got an awful lot more expensive.I do believe the people from Somerset classic bikes U.K. have complained big time about ethanol petrol as well.

The thing that gets me, how did they push through this change without informing those who would be effected by the change.It has to effect the value of classic bikes and cars in time to come. Or is it a case that this hobby is now for the wealthy only. I have seen five litre of Aspen 4 for sale at 35 euro, that’s just over one gallon, so a short Sunday run of 70 to 80 miles is going to cost 70 euro in fuel alone.

Sorry, but this is nothing more than the governments way of getting all old vehicles, cars and bikes off the road. Even if we wanted to trade in for something modern that could use the modern petrol, what would we get for our old immaculate classic. They have more or less made them worthless over night. How many people are willing to drain the fuel system after each run, if not used regularly. How many are willing to pay 35 euro a gallon, E10 is probably just over 8 euro a gallon.

Happy biking.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121080776#Comment_121080776

That's pretty much how I feel...an alternative that isn't at nosebleed levels of expense should be made available.

JP 1800

I hear you, the only other option is to remove the ethanol from the fuel yourself. Its not complicated to do, just a bit more of effort. Youtube ethanol removal from fuel, plenty of videos on it.

iceman700

Removing the ethanol yourself is fine, but to be honest, my bikes are kept in a wooden shed in the middle of a housing estate and I do not want large quantities of flammable liquid sitting around, plus when you remove the ethanol/water mix, where do you get rid of it.

just got an email from classic bikes U.K. with an email address for a place in the U.K. which sells R type storage petrol in 10 litre drums and he thinks they will ship them.

Am I allowed to put that info up?

Hotblack Desiato

@iceman700 that sounds like you had water separation in the tank and the carbs got filled with water. It might not run well on E10 (if carbs and/or timing need adjustment to suit) but it should run, petrol burns after all!

Can seals etc. in the fuel system on your bike be replaced with E10 compatible ones?

I'm not sure if stabilizer additives can prevent the problem with water separation in storage.

It was easier when leaded petrol disappeared, additives sorted that out, bit of faff and expense but nothing like 7 euro a litre expense! and because of the US market, most bikes were compatible with unleaded since the 1970s if not earlier.

What sort of bike? you can't be the only owner who is facing this problem, and ethanol has been used in the US for much longer than in Europe so owners over there will already have had to deal with any problems.

Doubt you'll find any courier willing to ship drums of petrol. If it can be got in NI then bringing it down yourself could be a possibility?

Hotblack Desiato

Thread here on the classic cars forum about E10 may be of interest:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058285653/e10-finally-coming-in

iceman700

Not sure if water separation occurred, as I have seen you tube videos of old E10 petrol been attempted to lit with a lighter flame.It just would not burn.

I agree with you, about couriers not delivering drums of petrol.

My bike is a 1981 Suzuki gsx750ex, it has a vacuum fuel tap, rubber diaphragm, the carbs are also vacuum with again rubber diaphragms, plus rubber o ring seals on jets, rubber plugs in the float chamber, rubber gaskets on the float bowls, plus the fuel lines. I doubt I could get E10 friendly replacements on these.

Beginning to think I will have to try E10 with an additive, but which additive will sort it, then drain the fuel system before each winter. It’s beginning to piss me off quiet frankly, maybe I will just get 5litres of aspen 4 and sell it.

Hotblack Desiato

You'd get the same result with ordinary petrol if left sit long enough, the volatile stuff all evaporates away and what's left won't ignite anything like as easily, it's the vapours which rise off the liquid which ignite with a lighter not the liquid itself.

There's vast numbers of owners of that and very similar bikes in Europe, never mind the US where they've had ethanol and all sorts of other crap added to fuel for years, there are definitely solutions out there.

iceman700

Thanks for your input, I agree there are solutions, they just happen to be very expensive as in the Aspen fuel, but to be honest this is just the start.

The agenda is to get old cars and bikes off the road, or minimise their use with expensive alternatives, and they maybe right, the climate is an important issue but in years to come will the same thing occur for pump petrol, where the push is to get everyone to go electric.

What greater incentive, than to have a litre of pump fuel costing 7 euro a litre.

Hotblack Desiato

Ok we are drifting into CT territory now.

larchielads

So how are people gettin on with the E10?

Fabio

Hasn't had any effects on my Deauville 700. I use Lucas Ethanol Fuel Conditioner at every second or third fill-up but, at the times I forget to add it, the bike seems fine.

Same with a VFR 750 (we're talking carbs here), it's been fine in that but I run that Lucas Ethanol Fuel Conditioner in that too.

Beta Ray Bill

I gave this a bash

20L of E10

Got about 2L of Ethanol out.

Assuming Ethanol is 108/109 RON and Its's been mixed with petrol which is 95 RON

(( 95 * 18 ) + ( 109 * 2 ))/20 = 96.4

So E10 is RON 96.4

Holts Redex fuel booster (1 shot) will increase RON by 1.5 (50L)

So half shot on 18L of Fuel should increase Fuel to at least 96.5 RON right?

Esel

Anyone refining the extracted ethanol for 'further use'?

Dan Jaman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617220#Comment_121617220

Fine, so far.

My old bikes run ok on it, but I add Stabil Marine to the ones that aren't in daily use. Also been trying out Briggs and Stratton's own version of stabiliser, which seems to work well enough on my gensets. I'm more concerned about genset reliability than the bikes, in a way.

I've been lucky, in that all my fuel systems were replaced over the years, as I steadily messed around and changed things about, so degraded rubber hasn't reared its head yet.