E10 Crap

amacca

Anyone here worried about not having much choice but to use e10 fuel in their bikes?

What type of stabilisers do ye use, what works? I don't fancy having to flush a tank every time I ride a bike here, total pain in the tits afaics

Bluefoam

It least it'll be a lot cheaper, because it'll have 10% less petrol in it, right?

RobertM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058295908/e10-crap

As far as I know. E10 was introduced in Europe back in 2013 (ish) and most manufacturers specify that their bikes are E10 compatible. See below some examples I found online.

• Honda for instance say all bikes made since 1993 are safe, while Honda said everything post-1993 is compatible, although carburettor-equipped models could experience poor driveability in cold weather
• Harley-Davidson say all bikes made since 1980 are fine
• BMW say every bike they’ve ever made will be alright as long as you get the correct octane.
• Yamaha and Triumph both said that all models from 1990-on are compatible with E10,
• Suzuki models made after 2002 are compatible with E10 and those made after 1992 might be but owners should seek advice.
• Ducati said that their Multistrada 620 and 1000 models were not compatible with E10 fuel, with tanks known to expand or leak in markets with ethanol-rich fuel.
• Kawasaki said that models made from 2006-on would be ok on E10 but advised customers not to use the fuel in bikes that weren’t specifically approved.

I've seen some E10 additives (protectors) in Halfords. Worth a try? It says multi dosage so I'm not sure how many shots you'd get out of 250ml bottle.

https://www.halfords.ie/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/fuel-oil-additives/wynn%27s-specialist-e10-protector-multi-shot-581494.html

emo72

What about bikes that are left lying up for months on time. Issues with corrosion?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585061#Comment_120585061

Defo....if inside of tank not been protected or treated in some way it will turn into a sieve with rust over time. The ethanol is hygroscopic so absorbs water .....then when it evaporates water left behind on surface

You could redufe the problem by not leaving a bike sitting with a tank near empty ....add a stabiliser etc

It would **** help if the fuel didn't have the shite in it in the first place. Its a bolox imo especially if you own older vehicles.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582312#Comment_120582312

Dyou mind me asking where you are getting the manufacturer/model specific info.....I've a bit to look up

If your engine isn't compatible with E10 I wonder if you could buy a supply in bulk of normal fuel or can you trust additives to make E10 compatible/bring up octane number etc..its a total pain in the hole but at least you aren't damaging it and it's not rendered completely obsolete.....

I'd be less annoyed if I didn't think it was basically a swizz

RobertM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585514#Comment_120585514

Initially I found them on MCN. motorcyclenews.com but a quick google search should bring up manufacturer's official website.

• https://www.honda.co.uk/motorcycles/my-bike/E10-fuel-update-2021.html
• https://bikes.suzuki.co.uk/news/standard-petrol-is-changing-to-e10-know-your-fuel/
• https://www.kawasaki.co.uk/en/news/Greener_E10_fuel_and_what_it_means_for_you?Uid=08F3C1kJXwtfWQ4OC15RXFoJCVBaUF4LDlkKX1AJUVkMWVs
• Can't find an official Suzuki website with the info.
• https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol this is good info. you can directly put in your make/model and check compatibility.
• 
  

D3V!L

Has anyone experienced an increase in fuel usage since E10 came in ?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587421#Comment_120587421

Ah balls, mine aren't compatible......😤

WheelieKing

I've noticed my MT09 isn't running as smooth as it had been since the local filling station switched to E10. I've only filled up twice but it just feels like it's a bit breathless compared to before. 2021 bike with only 9000 klms so shouldn't be an mechanical issue.

amacca

Can anyone tell me for sure if the higher octane premium fuels aren't e10 or are a way yo avoid them?

Do Circle K all offer the premium unleaded or is it maxol etc

Zebbedee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120601150#Comment_120601150

I have the same bike but I haven't noticed any poor running issues with it. I have an akrapovic fitted. I wonder does it make a difference.

What rev range do you experience the hesitancy?

Zebbedee

I also have late 80's yamahas which fall into the non compatibility category.

Has anyone experimented with suitable additives?

WheelieKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120602093#Comment_120602093

Standard exhaust on mine have been looking at a full system but can't justify the price. Think i'll get the suspension sorted first. Between 3k -5k revs

drakshug

This site will give you which bikes are compatible but it is in Dutch so you may need to Google translate

https://www.e10check.nl/

second drop down box that has motor/scootermerk...

From looking into this, guzzis and Ducatis and others with plastic tanks are a no no. The tanks expand.

Also, the Americans have been using E10 and E15 for longer so if it was exported there it should be good to go.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643690#Comment_120643690

Thanks, yep....not compatible with this shite....afaics all my bikes.

Such a pain in the hole. I'll have to try and find out what stabilisers or additives really do work.

I'm at a point in life where its not really performance is the issue, I just don't want the machine itself degraded by this ****...and really resent no longer just being able to pull up to a petrol station and fill as normal.

myclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643804#Comment_120643804

Given that E10 is essentially petrol with 10% ethanol and we have been using E5 for years wouldnt adding pure petrol redress the balance and solve the problem? Or am I being stupid? ''Aspen 4'' is a pure high quality petrol. Very expensive to use alone but might make sense to dilute the E 10 with it?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643996#Comment_120643996

Look I'm all ears for a viable solution, if that would do the trick then grand...I could calculate the volume of a tank and underfill by roughly whatever volume of the pure stuff I need..then top up with pure stuff...its a right royal pain but its solutions I'm after

I don't want a bike damaged and I'd like to be able to leave it in a garage for a while without worrying about it being fooked when I get back to it....

Where can you get the pure petrol you are talking about?

myclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644011#Comment_120644011

Google 'Aspen 4' . its available in lots of places. Just been doing some in the head mathematics an you'd have to mix at about fifty fifty ratio to get the ethanol back to 5% so the economics might not be great. aspen is expensive.

drakshug

Aspen 4 is in Quinn's and most other Agri type shops.. I use it for stoves but it is mainly used for lawnmowers and forestry tool.

It doesn't degrade either.

Make sure you get the pure petrol one and not the Aspen 2 which is 2 stroke premix.

Seweryn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644036#Comment_120644036

That is a huge expense to get the dilution to 5% (which still contains ethanol, just less of it). Water is a lot cheaper, or free. The only expense is that when you extract all the ethanol from your fuel with water you will be 10% down on volume. It makes sense to do it before filling the tank prior to storage in the winter if you not going to use the bike regularly.

myclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660730#Comment_120660730

I agree it is expensive. I said that. It depends if the person is confident with his home chemistry skills to extract the ethanol himself. I

Seweryn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660761#Comment_120660761

Yes. It is ieasy to exctract the ethanol from the mix. You only need a container and clean water. The trickiest bit would be to modify the container for easy separation / drainage of ethanol mix.

amacca

I'm not confident in my skills to extract the ethanol....from the above I assume its not simple distillation

Decant? Ethanol sticks to water and petrol is less dense essentially?

Seweryn

Put petrol into a container, add about 10% of clean water, shake, leave the mixture for a few hours. The ethanol (with water) will separate and will settle at the bottom of the container and once the purified petrol above is clear and not cloudy, collect it from the top or drain the water from the bottom of the container.

macplaxton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587421#Comment_120587421

Industry body: European Association of Motorcycle Manufacturers:

https://acem.eu/component/content/article/2-non-categorise/33-e10

For additive: Millers VSPe (always read the label)

larchielads

So will that additive do the job or what?

Varik

The ethanol adds to octane number so removing it reduces it down.

Does anyone after washing it out use an octane booster and what one is cost-effective.

Seweryn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681908#Comment_120681908

What is the fuel octane rating before ethanol is added?

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682079#Comment_120682079

Maybe it won't matter as most suggestions for adding a booster I see are from Americans were the norm is lower to begin with for their standard petrol.

For their standard petrol it's 87 then with 10 ethanol removed it'd would only be 84, while for Ireland after removing the ethanol it'd go from 95 to 93

Seweryn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683005#Comment_120683005

Well, I am not sure about that. I think we had 95 octane fuel before ethanol additive was the new norm. I don't think the octane rating would be lowered before ethanol added, so the mixture is 95 octane.

myclist

What are people doing with the water ethanol mix they are removing? Where can you dispose of it?

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687201#Comment_120687201

Ethanol is the alcohol we all know about. Remove any remaining impurities and flavour to taste?

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686159#Comment_120686159

The pure petrol without ethanol still comes in varying octanes, adding ethanol let's them use lower grade petrol to hit the 95 octane. The petrol in the 5% ethanol would be higher grade than the petrol that'll be used with the 10%.

There used to be higher octane available in Ireland normally but they banned over 95 years ago.

The Nutty M

What is the actual damage 10% ethanol is supposed to do? Eats diaphragms, seals etc? Or just hygroscopic in a tank?

E85 is around 20% cheaper here in Sweden, I haven't tried the 636 on it yet.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120700472#Comment_120700472

I've heard it does both of the above, I had first hand experience of a tank being destroyed but its the other damage I'm worried about.... its hard to separate fact from fiction regarding the extent and severity of possible damage afaics....

The manufacturer of some of my bikes hasn't listed anything manufactured before 2008/2009 as compatible with e10 so it's a bit worrying even if you know it may be akin to side effects listed on pharmaceuticals....

I added an e10 fuel protector to a tank yesterday as a stop gap, at 17 euro a bottle and only treats 60 litres + no easy means of measuring from the supplied bottle its an expensive pain in the hole...

I'm wondering if I can get away with e10 and flush the system with something like that Aspen 4 and brim tanks before they sit up for the winter but I don't want the bikes fucked up and even greater expense down the line..

If vehicles aren't compatible with this **** according to manufacturers themselves a reasonable alternative should be available...even if its only available in one or two places in a county at least you could stock up....its really poor form to not offer a decent alternative to something like this imo

I'm **** sick to the back teeth of all kinds of obsolescencey, planned and forced ....

blade1

This are in Lidl at the moment.

If I think I wont be using a bike for a while I'll be draining the tank.

https://www.lidl.ie/p/middle-aisle-highlights/oil-pump/p40108

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742640#Comment_120742640

NOT for petrol; motor oil and diesel only afaik.

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742695#Comment_120742695

It will suck petrol.

Why wouldn't it?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742802#Comment_120742802

Defo not an expert here, but wouldnt you want to be sure every last drop was sucked out, the worst tank I saw had about a half a teacup full of petrol in it that left all the inner surface fir the corrision to work on.....the ones that were fuller fared better

If you can get all of it out then maybe fair enough but I wonder would brimming it with a stabiliser before you leave it up be a better way to go?

ThreeGreens

Is there anywhere you can still buy E5?

I understood that the stations where allowed to sell E5 provided each pump had an E10 option too.

But I've not seen anywhere still selling it.

Bluefoam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120744403#Comment_120744403

I'd imagine there's more money to be made by keeping the pumps e10

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120744264#Comment_120744264

It is an option and if it was only one or two bikes yeah why not.

But what I have it's it's probably easier to drain them.

myclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742802#Comment_120742802

Ive no doubt it will. Might set it and you on fire too...

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745815#Comment_120745815

Hahaha mighty craic so.

Definitely doing it now.

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742802#Comment_120742802

I have one, and I remember the instructions said not to use it on petrol.

What could possibly go wrong? 😳

Use a mechanical one.

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120746325#Comment_120746325

I have one that pumps by hand but it's not great at getting fuel out of tanks.

What can go wrong?

Well I suppose petrol wouldn't be great for any seals inside.

I'll have to open it up and have a look and try a workaround if I think it needs it.

Most bikes have pumps submerged in fuel that can fail anyway.

I had a pump fail and when I took it out,a wire had a nick out of its insulation.

I'd probably be more worried about a vehicle that somebody uses one of these pumps all the time to drain the oil instead of via the sump plug.

I'm doing work on someone's bike at the moment and the sump had to come off.

37 year old bike, look what amassed.

Hotblack Desiato

Adding water to petrol when dissolved water is the problem!!! (just letting it sit won't remove all of it) and using chainsaw petrol, jeez I've heard it all now!

Is that Aspen stuff approved by any motor vehicle manufacturers at all? if not you'd be better off taking your chances with E10 tbh.

Ethanol can definitely cause problems when a bike is stored, but ordinary petrol will too if left long enough.

I used to have a Triumph with a plastic tank, owners in certain states in the US had the expanding tank problem even in the 00s. Some places mandated more ethanol and/or other crap than others.

A couple of decades from now getting petrol at all will be a problem...

Definitely think that those oil pumps are a menace, you need to drain an engine properly to get the crap out.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683005#Comment_120683005

The octane measure they use in the US isn't comparable with ours (look up RON and MON if you're interested) so the octane difference is much more slight than it looks.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120786074#Comment_120786074

What say you re stabilisers or additives...any brands/products etc you might recommend?

Hotblack Desiato

Never used any but I ride year round.