E10 finally coming in...

_ptashek_

Right, the day has come and we'll be getting E10 petrol at the pump in April. Two of my three classics can't handle it too well, one is from the 70s another form late 80s. Old materials that don't like ethanol etc.

I'll still drive them, but wonder how long they'll standup to the abuse. All the snake oil additives are largely useless anyway.

What's your plan?

mikeecho

My plan is the same as it is now.

Use fresh fuel, and in the winter when in storage, use StaBil.

For the bike I might try using Aspen fuel when not in use.

antodeco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280797#Comment_120280797

Is StaBil worth it? I've 3 classics that dont get driven for a few weeks at a time and concerned about leaving E10 sitting in tanks for that amount of time

Brian_Graham

Looks like certain Lexus models from the mid-noughties are not compatible with E10. Are they pretty worthless now?

https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/Lexus

drunkmonkey

MK1 GTI here an I'm wondering the same, sounds like it can do damage, wondering about fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel sender, fuel tank etc. Mine doesn't have a carb but it's mechanical fuel injection.

From what I've read the timing can be adjusted to accommodate the fuel.

MrCostington

I've just been reading the MB club forum on this, seems we at least need to change our rubber fuel lines. No idea about the rest like pumps, injectors and mechanical injector pump (or distributor?). I guess for carb cars the float might be at risk if plastic?

Edit: found this video on the forum, specific to MX5s but also general info - start at 1:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPbdKszvMxM

w124man

I think the main issues will be rubber components in fuel systems, things like diaphragms and seals. I also think that if the systems are used regularly then there will be no real issues, however, if, like me you only use your classics when the sun shines then E10 will cause issues. E10 has been around for a good while but in most European markets there is the 97/98 Octane E5 option as well - expensive but at least its there.

mikeecho

My plan with my bike that I rarely use, is to drain the fuel tank/ run it dry, and then put 5 or 10L of alkylate petrol into it while it's in storage (indoors)

alkylate petrol can be bought in garden centers and plant hire shops, it's not cheap at €30 for 5L

CoBo55

It's terrible that there's no alternative available at the pumps, at least in other countries you have the option of E5 higher octane fuel. Are all the additives useless?

MrCostington

On the MB forum, someone posted a video from a well known MB expert (from the US where they have been running E10 for many years) and he mentioned a Lucas product, not sure if this is it:

https://www.autofactorswaterford.ie/product/lucas-ethanol-fuel-conditioner-155ml/

IMO, the thing with all these additives, or indeed choosing the right oil, is unless you're a chemist with a lab, or, run your car on them for 10 years and then strip it down, you have no real way of knowing if they are doing anything!

drunkmonkey

Was forced to upgrade internal tank and external fuel pipes to E10 compliant since my post.

She refused point blank to start after a good run, pipes in the fuel tank connected to the internal tank fuel pump had turned to goo and wouldn't let fuel up. Some running along the body were also rotten and started leaking.

Took about 3 pints of rust from the fuel tank, and the Dyson is still working I'm happy to report.

Running sweet now and didn't cost much, even got the jubilee clips thrown in from the motor factors.

Thank you Mr Fuel Gauge for failing and making it an easy first go fix.

MrCostington

@drunkmonkey Sorry to hear that. Is E10 available now, how long was it running on it for? Where did you get the hoses from if you don't mind?

drunkmonkey

No it's not in yet I think, age got the better of them. I just got regular E10 compatible fuel lines from the auto factors and cut to size.

MrCostington

Ah, get you now. On my first reading of your post I assumed E10 had caused the issues you mentioned.

Thanks, good to know you can get E10 lines at a motor factor.

_ptashek_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120345548#Comment_120345548

Any decent fuel hose marked as compatible with the SAEJ30R9 standard is E5/E10 proof. Most sold in parts stores and online are however SAEJ30R6, and are "Ethanol tolerant", i.e. they'll work with E5/10, but at a much shorter life span. Most of our cars have SAEJ30R6 or even older stuff...

MrCostington

Ive still not done anything yet on my car apart from brim it with E5 the last few days of March, still have half a tank left.

Just spoke to a mate he thinks his local station still has E5, could that be the case? I thought it was E10 only? He put E10 in his '04 Fiesta and shortly after had to call out the breakdown service, might just be a coincidence.

Anyone had any experience of it yet?

w124man

I'm using E10 in my daily driver (VW T Roc) and I see no difference. I also have it in my W126 300SE and all is good. I didn't mean to put it in but I went to the GO Fuels forecourt in Ashford and they had changed over very early and I hadn't noticed. Car is running fine with its dose of Dipethane. Ill take it out again in a week and see if there is any difference.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496811#Comment_120496811

How do you know what fuel you got? Stickers on the pump handle? If so nothing has changed at my local maxol they're all still showing E5. Lying up is when the problems start, be interesting to see your observations.

_ptashek_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496018#Comment_120496018

I have, but in France (should make no difference - same EU standard applies).

My K-jetronic 450SE didn't like it one bit. The fuel was too volatile and was causing vapour locking in the, otherwise perfectly running, fuel system. Hot restarts were a major PITA - similar effect as if the pressure accumulator in the system was defect (which it wasn't). But once the vapour lock was pushed through, everything ran the same as on E5.

Just recently, a couple weeks back, my carbed 200T had no issue with E10. Ran the same as on E5, cold or hot. Consumption was a bit higher - but that's expected with E10.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496018#Comment_120496018

What happened to the fiesta? It could have been anything.

gipi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496018#Comment_120496018

The legislation came into effect in April, I understand garages have 3 months to switch over, so it'll be July before E5 disappears completely.

MrCostington

@w124man Your 126 is a late model I think? With a cat and O2 sensor?

@_ptashek_ Damm, that's not good news. Can anything be done to reduce this issue?

@CoBo55 He is not sure, other than he had a breakdown, Not a car guy!

@gipi Thanks for that. My local garage just has the one E10 petrol pump, but I'll check some of the bigger stations.

_ptashek_

@MrCostington This could be an issue specific to that car. The M117 V8 creates a lot of heat under the hood, and the fuel distributor and injector lines sit uninsulated right on top.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501579#Comment_120501579

Bonnet.

I'm assuming it didn't happen when he was using E5 which is why he posted it here, that would be my logic.

_ptashek_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501657#Comment_120501657

Yes, it never happend on E5.

w124man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497165#Comment_120497165

Yes. Stickers on the pump. However, I have since seen a pump with both stickers on the pumps and handle

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509284#Comment_120509284

I was getting diesel earlier and all the pumps are showing E5, Top oil garage.

MrCostington

Was watching Wheeler Dealers yesterday and they were doing a Dolomite Sprint. 'Elvis' rebuilt the carb with an E10 compatible kit, so these kits are out there for some cars (but not mine it seems).

But found this while searching, main part on E10 is about a quarter way down the page:

https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510247#Comment_120510247

What carb have you got?

MrCostington

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510467#Comment_120510467

I have injection. What I meant was I was hoping there may be a similar kit for me, with rubber parts for injector seals, fuel distributor etc.

w124man

Dolly Sprints work on the SU carb so there is a huge market for relevant E10 kits

_ptashek_

Here's some interesting consumption stats in l/100km from my 4000 miles round trip through Europe this month, in my carbed 200T W124. Almost exclusively motorway driving in France and Germany.

Blue = E5-95 (French and German)

Red = E10-95 (F/G)

Green = E5-95 (Irish, filled up just before boarding the ferry)

Yellow(ish) = E5-98 (G)

I don't know what's wrong with Irish fuel, but it's the same picture every time. At least 2 l/100km more on average.

CoBo55

100 octane here in Bulgaria €1.50 a litre💥 very few diesel cars, 95 is €1.30 with diesel slightly dearer or the same price. Couldn't get close enough to a pump to see if was E10 or 5.

w124man

Apparently the Millers product is proving good so far. Garden equipment suppliers are also selling an additive which will work

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544320#Comment_120544320

All the Millers stuff is good in fairness.

Seweryn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538112#Comment_120538112

2l / 100 km extra is a massive difference - it is almost an uplift I would expect from open road driving to town. 0.2 l would be noticable, but 2 litres is hard to believe. Was the car driven in similar conditions?

_ptashek_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545570#Comment_120545570

Yes, it's all data from a single trip in Europe. I don't have exact stats, but safe to assume 90/10 motorway/city split.

w124man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496811#Comment_120496811

I am now on my third tank of E10 in my 300SE and I have treated each tank with the recommended Millers E10 additive dose and a dose of Dipethane. I can see no performance difference and no starting issues after being in the shed for two weeks. I know its early on in the scheme of things but some of the telltale signs of E10 I'm not seeing.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663988#Comment_120663988

I suppose the proper test would be to try a tank without any additive, then a tank with millers followed by a tank with that dip snake oil.

w124man

"that dip snake oil"

Dipethane is far from snake oil! Had you said that a year ago I could have furnished you with the test results from a client of mine who trialled Dipethane in their fleet of large diesel engines trucks. The fuel savings over the six months test period was 8% and emissions reduction was in the order of 12% and the smoke reduction quite noticeable. The client was very happy! Retired now and all the results are with my former company.

Dipethane works but it does not cure the issues with E10. The Millers does that. E10 does not burn as well as E5 so I put in the Dipethane to try to overcome that issue.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667281#Comment_120667281

I tried it on the last car I had, a 191 diesel superb, found absolutely no difference whatsoever, millers on the other hand made a noticeable difference, less regens, better fuel consumption etc. Maybe the car was too new to benefit from Dipethane. I tried it in my heating kerosene and the burner chamber definitely looked cleaner when I serviced it the following year.

Titzon Toast

So, does the additive from Millars really work? Is it worth buying?

w124man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681305#Comment_120681305

I don't know as I've only started using it. In a years time if all my rubber components have perished I might reply differently but as yet its too early to say

Titzon Toast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687804#Comment_120687804

I've found some additives to try just in case. They could be snake oil but I guess I'll find out eventually.

MrCostington

I've been using this one (simply because that's all they had in my local factors):

https://www.halfords.ie/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/fuel-oil-additives/wynn%27s-specialist-e10-protector-multi-shot-581494.html

The guys in the MB club forum reckon that either this, Millers or Lucas should be fine. I'm on my 2nd or 3rd fill now (unsure as the first one said E10 on the pump nozzle and E5 on the pump itself under the display!). Before I used to get 10 gallons (45.5L) at a time for easy checking of MPG, now I get 25L so it's not sitting as long.

No problems to report at this stage. Fuel consumption is hard to say, actually been a lot better than normal, but then I've also been to several shows and runs of some distance. I might try running without additive as suggested above to satisfy my curiosity.

Conway635

I have a 1957 Ford 100E sidevalve, which I drive some weekends (generally clock up approx 1,000 miles a year).

The first summer I had it (summer of 2018) I suffered a few problems of vapourisation - not wanting to restart while hot because the fuel had boiled. I resolved these with two fixes - a head-shield between the exhaust manifold and the carb, and a reconditioned fuel pump (as the old one was worn and weak). (it's a mechanical fuel pump at the front of the engine, the fuel flowing to it by gravity).

The car has been great ever since, even in hot weather.

Yesterday I had to put in E10 for the first time, and had a major vapourisation issue pretty much straight away. Unlike 2018 when it would re-start after 30 mins, I had to wait an hour before it would fire up. I nursed it home, and when I parked it in the garage I could see the fuel in the clear fuel filter literally boiling like a kettle.

So, I'm going to have to re-think my options. For now I'll have to avoid summer driving, but I'll look into additional heat shielding, lagging the front portion of the exhaust pipe, or possibly an electronic fuel pump.

Steve

antodeco

Only issue Ive found with the lucas (the one I use) is that there is no "measurement" section, so I end up pouring about 1/4 of the bottle in on each fill

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704374#Comment_120704374

Did you try using one of the additives suggested?

w124man

Problem is with these additives, none of us will actually know if they work until its too late! maybe all classic car clubs should organise runs to Newry so we can fill up with E5 98!!

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706965#Comment_120706965

Well, in the case of the sidevalve Ford the results should be apparent almost immediately.

noelf

Read this recently on the Libby library app ..