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China v Taiwan. The next big conflict?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,789 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    The Hong Kong citizens did not get any vote and I am nearly certain they would not have voted in favour of reunification had they been given one.

    So I am also a little confused by that other posters post.





  • That China continues to push the "one country, two systems" proposal as a cross strait solution considering what happened in HK, would actually be funny if it wasn't so serious. It's utterly dead as a way forward now IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,343 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    You have zero knowledge of Taiwan history I see.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,157 ✭✭✭✭Overheal






  • Well the "broken, bankrupt" accusation is BS to start with. Current debt to GDP ratio is 30%, central bank interest rate is 1.875%, plus inflation is at 1.75%. They must be doing something right.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,157 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Japan and USA bolster the military demarcation in the western pacific with new strategic military installations.

    (after intro skip sponsor to 4:20). Found this to be a good channel, the guy's hobby horse is historical cartography and geopolitics. He's done his homework for this one too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭2Greyfoxes


    His videos are quite entertaining, and informative. I recommend people watching his content, well worth the time investment.

    I think China would lose if they attempted to invade Taiwan. The West and its allies in the area can not afford a Chinese occupied Taiwan. China is all too aware of this, and I reckon has been watching the Ukraine conflict unfold to gauge how effective the Military tech of the West is. So it may be very hesitant to launch an invasion, as all the indicators point to an overwhelming Chinese defeat.

    That said, I do think all the Military build up from the West in the area might make China feel they have no option, but to strike out. It is a tricky one, China is being very bullish towards a good number of countries in that part of the world, so naturally those countries ask for aid, the US already has concerns about the rise of China. So willingly provides Military aid... which in turn is viewed by China as provocation.

    It is a vicious cycle that China has caused, and one that in decades to come is going to be viewed by historians with great interest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Japan, south Korea, Australia and New Zealand have been attending Nato summits for the last while too , while China has been vocal over Taiwan for decades and have isolated them from most countries political and military supports it still hasn't gotten them Taiwan under it's control, military action is the only step left ,as it stands they have the ability to take Taiwan by force and to keep any allies at arm's length before any one can intervene, it's already been claimed in war games America would loose most of its naval vessels including aircraft Carriers in the first week Alone if China decided to launch an attack on Taiwan ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,314 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    This Is probably pretty accurate.

    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The menu reads

    Taiwan for starters.

    Taiwan for mains

    Taiwan for dessert.

    With sides of Taiwan and the South China sea



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  • If you compared semiconductor output to oil, imagine that 60% of the worlds oil wells were on an island half the size of Ireland and somebody made a unilateral move to seize them. There would be a helluva fuss over it……



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,462 ✭✭✭brickster69




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The Chinese were laughed at a few years ago when they announced they were planning to build 4 new destroys similar to the US Arlie Burke class destroyers they now operate 40 with another similar number being built, along with 20 aircraft carriers



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,157 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How do these destroyers actually compare to the counterpart Arlie Burke?

    That is indeed a cause for concern. Even if virtually none of that capacity is specced for military right now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I believe that are are complete clones of the Arlie Burkes , built from stolen US plans wether they are similar in capabilities is a different story operational wise is a different story,but it you look at the new stealth fighters experts are saying they are extremely Capable aircraft,

    The biggest issue will likely having experienced crews and commanders Operating the ships and naval warfare in general,not a lot of countries out side the US and Uk and france have conducted any kind of naval warfare operations over the last 60 + years



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,157 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    There are, indeed, a lot of people, both technical, civilian, active and former military, that the Chinese have captured, sometimes legally (retired military doing sanctioned contracts) sometimes illegally (illegal arms dealers, espionage, treason), that make their ability to replicate, emulate or even potentially iterate on US tech and doctrine a real threat.

    I can think of a few ways the Pentagon could already be planning for the eventuality but I appreciate how easily this will keep people up at night that if WW3 were to indeed break out, China could in theory spawn naval supremacy in the Pacific within short order. However, I really don't see China having the motivation to do any such thing, or waste that much economy and labor floating at sea to measure dicks, or engaging in wars of attrition that will only recede or collapse their economy when whatever such action is concluded. But wars start for the irrational reasons.





  • 20 aircraft carriers??? The Chinese have 2 currently in service, with another one (the 80,000 tonne Fujian) due to go into service in the next couple of years. None of them are nuclear powered like the US carriers. They won't have 20 carriers for a long time to come, even if they have a plan to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,767 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    They have a few rail powered ones. Maybe someones counting them, I mean.... Technically they can carry aircraft 🤷🏻‍♂️




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,462 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Why would they need 20 aircraft carriers if they have no intention of invading anyone. They have never dropped a bomb on another country or started a war since WW2 ?

    All roads lead to Rome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    At the rate they are building ships they will have 5-10 operational in the next 5 years ,



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,157 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Overheal I can think of a few ways the Pentagon could already be planning for the eventuality but I appreciate how easily this will keep people up at night that if WW3 were to indeed break out, China could in theory spawn naval supremacy in the Pacific within short order. However, I really don't see China having the motivation to do any such thing, or waste that much economy and labor floating at sea to measure dicks, or engaging in wars of attrition...

    It won't be a war of attrition when it comes to China,they have already looked at the grand chess board and decided we won't take America head on yet ,but we have the weapons America has zero defence against mainly hypersonic anti ship missiles with extended range to keep American aircraft carriers at least 1000km away from their areas of operations , these weapons aren't the Putin type wuderwaffens seen in Ukraine rebadged ballistic missiles these are the real Deal modern hypersonic glide weapons which they isn't a counter for and one can easily sink a US carrier , with the loss of hundreds of aircraft and thousands of men , the US will be forced to keep their ships out of range which in turns takes US aircraft out of the game too , American aircraft wouldn't be able to even get close to the Chinese mainland before being forced to turn around or face running out of fuel ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,157 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Fuel is China's big achilles heel and why NATO doesn't have to worry about a chinese superfleet anytime soon without a revolution in chinese energy economy, right now they have to receive their oil shipments all primarily through the Singapore Strait, from the Middle East.

    And they have pipelines with Russia but of course this means those pipelines have to be hardened to surgical attacks or acts of sabotage (gl,hf) and China and Russia have to remain buds (at last count China was just pleading with Russia not to dick around with nuclear fallout in Ukraine)

    In general I'm not clear that NATO or the US have any interest in the Chinese mainland so they don't have an interest in getting their carriers dinged up but the ring of defenses they have around China's naval capabilities ensure a stand-off for the foreseeable future.

    I don't know that the hype in hypersonic missiles matters anymore, artillery/strike missiles all have been for some time now, in the hypersonic range, but so too have been the countermeasures like the Patriot battery, which fires a hypersonic interceptor (up to mach 4.1 (officially)). I think if the US ever did for some yet unforseen reason, really want to penetrate into Chinese airspace for military objectives, the US have other means in the pipeline* for deep strikes than the carrier groups of last century's wars.

    *




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Lockheed Martin is preparing their NGAAD fighter to replace the F22 raptor along with Boeing and Grumman with similar aircraft,this is no big secret it's been public knowledge for years , along with the new B21 raider new generation stealth bomber , along with the other NGAAD aircraft pronounced NjAAD for the US navy next fighter



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,157 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    What's being alleged in the video is that in addition to the NGAD there is another, 2nd 'secret plane' that has exceeded the SR-71's air breathing flight speed record (Mach 3.3). Youtuber Beau could of course be totally wrong in his assertion but it is interesting.

    It was reported previously NGAD would have "at least" or "about" a Mach 2.8 top speed. Lockheed is teasing it might have broken the SR-71's record. It's possible it's the same plane, but not necessarily. And it's definitely not the B21 raider going at Mach 3.3, I'm just gonna throw that out there.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No they won't.

    They currently have 2 carriers, one an ex-soviet one and one a Chinese built. Neither have catapults. A third is undergoing sea trials that has a catapult but is conventionally powered (as is the British one of course, this isn't necessarily a negative) and not due for active service for another year at least. There is apparently a new nuclear powered type being built. There is no mass carrier building going on however.

    They can't do night operations and have no real experience in carrier operations full stop. They're decades away from being comparable to the US fleet. Of course there will be an inflection point particularly as the US fleet ages.

    https://news.usni.org/2022/08/18/chinas-navy-could-have-5-aircraft-carriers-10-ballistic-missile-subs-by-2030-says-csba-report

    https://www.reuters.com/world/chinas-aircraft-carriers-play-theatrical-role-pose-little-threat-yet-2023-05-05/



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,462 ✭✭✭brickster69


    And don't forget the submarines. US will have whatever is left spread far and wide throughout the world, so massively outnumbered by China, North Korea and Russia.


    All roads lead to Rome.





  • Invaded and occupied Tibet in 1951. Attacked India in 1962, ditto Vietnam in 1979. Not to mention their massive intervention in the Korean war in 1950 as well. Other than that they're too busy keeping a repressive all seeing eye on their own population.



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  • Even if they could, what would they want them for? Does China want a blue water carrier based navy with a global reach? I'm not so sure. If its concentrating on taking Taiwan, its land based assets would be well capable IMO of dominating the air space over Taiwan, if their missile capability can keep the US carrier fleet from intervening. After all its only c100 miles to the island. As Overheal says above though, fuel is the Chinese achilles heel, so I don't think we'll be seeing the Chinese equivalent of a Nimitz or a Ford class carrier just yet in an attempt to overcome this problem.



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