Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164241#Comment_122164241

I never mention the religion of the US President. If you read it as a warning, you read Tinytots post where he mentioned the US President was Catholic. I did not make a premonition of his death. Read what I wrote "Joe Biden will not last much longer as President, will there be any future US presidents in the next generation or two with as strong an Irish connection as Joe ? " Joe Biden is in his 82nd year, he has had 2 wars occur on his watch and Ukraine (which was neutral before it was invaded) looks to be losing recently.

So have another go, FrancieBrady. You have been caught out yet again. If you think you have not, why did you post

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162248#Comment_122162248

Who is the somebody? Because it was not me (I never mentioned anything about the religion of the US President) or Tinytots.

I certainly do not worry, and Tinytots told you he does not either. So you have been caught out. If you were a man you would admit it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164314#Comment_122164314

I never mention the religion of the US President

Nobody said you did.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164386#Comment_122164386

You implied I did because there were only three people on the conversation about the US President ( you, me and Tinytots) and you wrote to Tinytots: "I think somebody who thinks it's appropriate to warn us that the next US presidents will no longer be a Catholic has been 'worrying'"

Who is the "somebody?"

You have been caught out yet again FrancieBrady.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164420#Comment_122164420

You implied I did

No, I replied to the poster who felt it important to sectarianise the discussion by mentioning the man's religion in a post about continued US support for the Irish position and the possibility of a UI.

I can interpret a post anyway I like and don't need your approval.

P.S. Please read the thread properly, you cannot even quote the poster's name properly.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164434#Comment_122164434

We have established it was Tinytobe who mentioned the US President's religion was Catholic. I never mentioned anything about the religion of the US President.

It is very strange you reply to Tinytobe "I think somebody who thinks it's appropriate to warn us that the next US presidents will no longer be a Catholic has been 'worrying'". Tinytobe himself has said he is not worried. Neither am I.

So where are you getting the " somebody who thinks it's appropriate to warn us that the next US presidents will no longer be a Catholic has been 'worrying" from?

Why do you make up statements like that? Who is the "somebody" you refer to? It is not me or Tinytobe. Who is it? Some little figment of your imagination again, because nobody else was in on the discussion about the US President?

tinytobe

Interesting conversation.

I don't think it has any implication on Ireland or Northern Ireland if the US president is catholic or protestant.

Apart from the political issues, I personally find Northern Ireland interesting to travel to. There are very few tourist traps as well, public transport is rather good, seems better in Belfast than in Dublin any time as well.

I would presume that around marching season or bonfire night, things may get tense, but otherwise everything is probably very calm.

Having Canadian as well as British citizenship I naturally like the monarchy, or say, the monarchy with a parliamentary system. And still I go to the catholic church and mass. I often find Catholicism more appealing, it's more traditional, but less endless blabbering as the protestants tend to do.

Close proximity to Palestinians and Cuban revolutionaries bother me, same as abusing the poppy and remembrance for UFF and UDF members.

I guess on that part I neither fit into the one or the other category.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164499#Comment_122164499

The 'somebody' was Tinytobe - that is why I quoted his post and replied to him/her and NOT you.
You caught yourself out here, you jumped in thinking it was you who was being referenced.

I told you before, I am not here to be cross-examined by you. I will address posts I see fit to address.
You don't see the whole tone of that post as a warning to those who think US support will continue and who believe it will be there if there is a UI, that is your prerogative. That is how I saw it, and the sectarianising of that support was done for a reason.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164505#Comment_122164505

Do you understand why people in Ireland would have a similar aversion to commemoration and celebration of the British Army and it's various security forces? Because of what they did and were involved in?

Do you have any ideas on how all are allowed to commemorate their dead now or in a UI?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164560#Comment_122164560

At least the British brought industry to Belfast, resulting in jobs and wealth. Around 1900 Belfast seemed to be a boomtown. Shipbuilding back then could be compared to the production of Airbus today, or Boeing for that matter.

It's probably a grave difference of opinion as to many things. Ireland for instance doesn't have an air force with fighter jets, if something happens the RAF comes over from Scotland, - over airspace of the Republic. In the Republic of Ireland the majority seems to be against NATO, against arming their own military to really defend the country, even refuse to believe that there could be an enemy. That as a whole is very strange to me.

In St. Patrick's church in Dublin there are surprisingly many memorials to commonwealth standards for those who served in WW 1. Poppies, wreaths, certain flags, etc… So obviously somebody is interested. It probably depends on political opinions and on which part of society one is as well.

The large amount of Palestinian flags in Dublin and the Republic of Ireland do bother me actually. Even worse associating the Palestinian flag with something Catholic, or Catholicism in Ireland in general. It's not a flag of tolerance to me. Lot's of Irish would most likely see this different.

Also, if Northern Ireland would no longer be part of NATO due to an Irish Unification, the lack of NATO in the North would bother me as well, as I would see Ireland less secure.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164687#Comment_122164687

…and you didn't address the question.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164708#Comment_122164708

What do you expect? To discuss the famine? Or the plantation? Oliver Cromwell? William the 3rd? James the 1st?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164547#Comment_122164547

It was tinytobe in post no. 9342 who wrote "I certainly don't worry".

You replied in post 9343 "I think somebody who thinks it's appropriate to warn us that the next US presidents will no longer be a Catholic has been 'worrying'"

Tinytobes replied "Ah, I understand"

The implication you made was that I was the "somebody": yet I never mentioned the religion of the US President. I think his religion has nothing to do with it. Look at the thread and the exact post.

You were caught out yet again FrancieBrady.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164560#Comment_122164560

Many people in Ireland do honour and pay respect to those hundreds of thousands of people from the Ireland of Ireland who fought with the British in the 20th century. Funny how you ask another poster "Do you have any ideas on how all are allowed to commemorate their dead now or in a UI" when you post for the party which had its military wing blow up innocent civilians at a Remberance Day Ceremony in Enniskillen back in the nineteen eighties? Their only crime? Commemorating their friends and relatives, some of who died in WW1 and WW2. But they were a legitimate target for the pIRA, who you still have not condemned. I bet in Canada people are allowed to commemorate the dead of WW1 and WW2 without being blown up by some Republican terrorist group.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164819#Comment_122164819

You can address those issues if you wish. I would expect maybe keeping it to the most recent conflict/war. I'll ask the question again:

Do you understand why people in Ireland would have a similar aversion to commemoration and celebration of the British Army and it's various security forces? Because of what they did and were involved in?

Do you have any ideas on how all are allowed to commemorate their dead now or in a UI?

I am not asking you to agree with how people feel, that is not ever going to happen. Just do you understand and are you prepared to accommodate those who feel differently to you.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164827#Comment_122164827

The implication you made was that I was the "somebody":

You have too high an opinion of your opinions. I didn't even consider you in that reply.

Somebody mentioning the religion of a President thinks that his religion is of some importance, otherwise, why would somebody mention it.

Your own arrogance led you to believe something, you were wrong.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164837#Comment_122164837

The problem I still see is that the British armed forces were facing a terrorist organization.

Firing at unarmed protesters is certainly unacceptable.

There were uprisings against the British in nearly every country, including Canada.

The philosophical question I also have is whether the former colonies are now better of, or less corrupt, better run, as if they were under British rule?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164876#Comment_122164876

Ok, badgering is looked down on here.
You clearly don't want to address the issue or question asked.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164909#Comment_122164909

And what precisely is the question? And which atrocities are you referring to?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164958#Comment_122164958

Do you understand why people in Ireland would have a similar aversion to commemoration and celebration of the British Army and it's various security forces? Because of what they did and were involved in?

Do you have any ideas on how all are allowed to commemorate their dead now or in a UI?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165011#Comment_122165011

I could guess and did that. It apparently didn't answer your question. So the straight answer would be no.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165011#Comment_122165011

It is a very loaded question. A most correct question would be "why some people in Ireland would have a similar aversion to commemoration and celebration of the British Army". Because not everyone in Ireland has an aversion to commemorating the hundreds of thousands of brave Irish people who volunteered to help fight with Britain in WW1 and WW2 for example. And at least some people on the island are proud of how the security forces stood up to the paramilitaries during the troubles.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165024#Comment_122165024

So you don't understand why those who were victimised by the BA and the security forces (not just by atrocity but every single days of their lives) would have an aversion to commemoration and celebration of those forces?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165099#Comment_122165099

In general I only have partial understanding of the Northern Ireland conflict, especially the troubles.

Looking at the overall economic situation on the whole island of Ireland back then, life in the Republic was grim and dire. At the same time the North had it economically better. It was simply not the case when the Irish free state was established that that part of the island started to economically prosper. Emigration didn't stop, deValera ran an isolationist course in economics, rarely good for jobs, employment and business. Don't think anybody found the situation pleasing.

So why support the IRA, and go out there protesting, in a system where I have it better then down south in the Republic. Just out of religious reasons?

It would be idiotic to think that in a land of right to free religion one would heat that subject up again. Even worse to seek close connections to Palestinians, Cubans and sometimes even Libya.

I have much more disgust for Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah and Cuban revolutionaries than to some misbehaviour of the British army.

Hamas, Hezbollah and Cuban communists have much more murders to their account. They represent a much more sinister system as well.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165099#Comment_122165099

A tiny bit of exaggeration there. I am from south of the border and was never victimised by the BA and the security forces on many hundreds of visits ( in a southern reg car ) during the troubles to N. Ireland. I always found them polite and professional. No problems at all, even though they were facing almost daily terrorist attacks.

I doubt if even Gerry Adams, (Leader of the Republican movement in N.I. for decades, and thought of by some as being in the IRA) could say he was victimised by the BA and the security forces "every single day of his life".

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165177#Comment_122165177

NI was a militarised zone. All the invasive infrastructure was there, checkpoints, patrols, watchtowers etc.
The army were there to do a job, and they did it.
Now if you are in denial about how they did that job, rock on.
The fact is there are many people who see things differently. Many.

The question to Tinytobe (not you btw) was: Can he/she understand that in a divided society there are different views and can he/she accommodate those views.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165177#Comment_122165177

I would largely see the British Army as professional, they have training. The IRA could never have had the same military training and certainly no professionalism.

The thing is the terror of the IRA can't be denied or described as a fight for freedom.

Remember they bombed, not only in NI, but also across Britain, at times like during WW2 as well as later on.

The IRA also sympathized with Nazi Germany as well, I don't think anybody in the British army did.

I don't recall the British bombing Ireland at the same time during the troubles. ( let's exclude 1916 here )

I also don't think that there was a majority of Irish independence around 1916. It was only the reaction of the British to that, the Black and Tans, which behaved the way they did, and public opinion then changed.

Ulster was also one of the poorest and depressing areas of Ireland. Would Belfast ever have gotten the industry the same way if it wasn't for Britain?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165366#Comment_122165366

If it was not for the IRA then the checkpoints would not have been needed to be there, and would not have been there.

During the IRA border campaig of 1956 - 1962 when the IRA attacked and murdered in N.I., there were no watchtowers to speak of. It was only during the Republican "armed struggle" campaign that checkpoints became more fortified, a few watchtowers built in certain areas, generally security beefed up etc. Nearly all of the 19,000 explosions during the troubles were planned / built / exploded by the IRA. The checkpoints etc were to try to protect the population from that. There is no proof of the British army planning / making / exploding bombs, even though they could have set off hundreds of thousands if not millions if they wanted.

Bit rich of you to complain about checkpoints / watchtowers when if it was not for comrades of the party you support, there would have been no need for same. And the people manning them living in fear of their lives, just to try to keep peace.

There were also checkpoints here in the Republic at times during the troubles, manned by Gardai / Irish army : for example, I remember the car the Republican "Border Fox" was in being shot at ( and an occupant of the car killed) at such a checkpoint.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165376#Comment_122165376

This is as onesided as it gets.

I don't have any issues with commemoration of British and NI security forces as long as they are respectful.

I won't have in a UI either.

I understand there are others who have a different view to me. I can accommodate those views.

You obviously can't. That was all I wanted to know.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165597#Comment_122165597

The checkpoints/watchtowers and indeed Army were there because the British allowed a sectarian, one party statelet to operate until it went up in flames.

When it did, they erroneously and tragically thought they could shore up the statelet by force. It took them 30 years approx to work out that was never going to work and sat down and negotiated something that should have been in place long before. As Hume said, it was only when the Unionist Veto was removed in the Anglo Irish Agreement that things began to change.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165681#Comment_122165681

There was a free and open referendum in 1973 in N.I., everyone over 18 had the vote, and the majority of the electorate ( not just the majority of the voters on polling day ) voted to stay part of the UK.

The British government flew Adams and other Republican leaders to London in the early seventies and pleaded with them to stop bombing, shooting, sniping etc. But Adams & co said no, they would continue their armed struggle until "Brits out". The SF / IRA aim was a socialist "United Ireland". It took another 2 decades, and the infiltration of IRA with informers and the turning of some leadership, for the IRA to surrender their weapons + semtex / get it put beyond use.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165622#Comment_122165622

Was Sinn Fein not against the commemoration of the RIC by the Irish government a few years ago? Even though the RIC contained mostly Irish people / people born in Ireland? It was still too British for SF, even though the RIC was the police of the government then and most RIC were very decent people. No wonder some people call SF the flip flop party, full of hypocrites. You say don't have any issues with commemoration of British and NI security forces, but the military wing of SF ( the party you post for) did bomb the remembrance day ceremony in Enniskillen.

You are about as one sided as they get.