Why I'll say no to a united ireland

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968476#Comment_121968476

How is there no such thing as pure irish or British identity? I presume by pure you mean not mixed with another identity? If a person from Ireland only has a national irish identity how is that not pure? Irish identity is based on being from Ireland not the ROI.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966795#Comment_121966795

oh that’s very different. That’s not what you said. You said that people from ni could not play for the GB&NI. Olympic team. I proved that was patently wrong.
of course someone who is affiliated to the Ireland hockey setup cannot play for team gb even they live in London, unless they redefine.

downcow

You did accept it.

downcow

Brilliant point

downcow

Who do you regard as Irish people?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970778#Comment_121970778

If I accepted that term as having any official use then yeh, not a problem.
Try, 'our European lands'.
No problem with that either.
As the poster said, you live in Ireland like the rest of us. We are all interested in 'our' future here.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970849#Comment_121970849

and you live on our British archipelago 👍

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970908#Comment_121970908

No. We live on our archipelago. By adding British you are implying ownership. The poster said 'our island'.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970936#Comment_121970936

well that’s great. I will retract my comments and accept the posters comment as reasonable, given you are suggesting it would be inappropriate if he had said ‘our Irish island’ or ‘our island of Ireland’.
indeed I commend you for being prepared to remove the tag of Ireland or Irish from this beautiful green island. Now we are on the same page 👍

Seth Brundle

Mod: back to discussing reunification and stop with the trolling nonsense or I'll quickly close this thread

FrancieBrady

Said it before that the big + for a UI would be if the UK diverged more. The disregard for the GFA is stunning. Wonder will the new leader of the DUP be cheering this on too?

https://twitter.com/deirdreheenan/status/1775615626737848410

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971600#Comment_121971600

Will you kick posters off for putting "our" infront of a geographical feature... Reeks of sectarianism.

Also posters that use "island" instead of her name Ireland are also trolling.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970778#Comment_121970778

No, of course not. Britain is only one of the islands. Calling them the "British Isles" is just as problematic as calling them the "Irish Isles".

But "our islands", in a context where "our" meant both British and Irish people? Sure, no problem.

rn

Is there any chance here you're over reading into the meaning of various descriptions of Ireland and Britain? And does it really matter for the vast majority of us?

I'm happy enough that the country I live in is Ireland, on the island of Ireland. There doesn't have to be a contradiction there because one is a geography and the other is a political, human created entity. Northern Ireland is also on the island of Ireland. It's in the United kingdom (political entity) but not in Britain (island - which itself has 3 political entities).

The British Isles doesn't include the the Irish Isles in my opinion, as the collection of Ireland and her satellite islands is significant enough and separated geographically enough to be their own grouping from Britain and her satellite islands. But that's just opinion and does not bother me if someone uses British Isles to include Ireland( island and country) because Ireland (country) is independent.

But that opinion forms why I'd vote yes. An independent Ireland, where people can live, work and prosper together. Yes I understand it's a problem for people who identify as Irish, but really want the crown as head of state and a bigger problem for people who identify as British in Ireland who also want the crown as head of state. But ultimately democracy works, must be respected and you can only keep people down for so long. And it must transition peacefully.

Now I still struggle to see we'll be voting north and south in the next decade, as SF have stated.

Tow

As per John Fitzgerald on RTE this morning: Increase tax by 25%, the same as a third of a Bank Bailout every year.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972599#Comment_121972599

A cost of €20 billion a year for €20 years

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0404/1441589-united-ireland/

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972599#Comment_121972599

I heard that+ a reduction in services. I wouldn'thave much faith in anything that John Fitzgerald or the ERSI would say seeing as they were unable to predict the crash of 2008 ( even my dog Ted was a bit uneasy in 2007!) However assuming they are correct, and they are the professionals after all, are we prepared to stump up. I don't believe we would be prepared to do so seeing as people took to the streets in order to avoid paying for water treatment!

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972646#Comment_121972646

Ultimately the question will be as it was always the case in issues of reunification across the world: whether emotion trumps economics. Would the Irish population be willing to absorb the North even at the cost of tax etc. - versus the emotional contingent of the island being unified once more? And on that we can't know 'til the proposition become a reality… then the conversations begin and we'll see how much runway the teary-eyed emotionality wins out.

For sure it's going to cost the Republic, I think that's inescapable.

FrancieBrady

Anyone know where this report is? Like a few of the other ones on their website I'll bet this is Fitzgerald just rehashig his previous effort where he assumed the subvention had to be replaced. We know this is not the case.
I think it may be a case of 'I have a new Institute to promote….what will get me on the news?'

Dara Calleary interestingly very quick to point out that their were huge benefits to unification.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972669#Comment_121972669

Not a snowballs chance in hell will the electorate put emotion before the cold hard reality of higher taxation and the thought of swopping 1m disaffected nationalists as part of the UK, for 1m disaffected Unionists being part of a United Ireland.

Leave them all where they are, we are doing just fine without both.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972703#Comment_121972703

East and West Germany's unification proves otherwise; both countries were broadly apathetic towards reunification 'til it became a reality and IIRC the polls then shrunk at the prospect of Germany becoming one again. It was never a roaring majority mind you and as we know even after reunification, there was a lot of resentment towards the East - but this was a clear example of the emotional aspect trumping a much more pronounced economic reality; whatever else NI was or is, its economy isn't as degraded as East Germany's was.

You say "no chance" but I don't think it'll be that clear-cut. Not least because in this speculative version of the future, presumably the Unionist community will have shrunk enough such that they're already a minority in the first place. They wouldn't be at the 1 million mark anymore.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972702#Comment_121972702

You can download it here. The cost of harmonization isn't too difficult to estimate as all the data is available. Wil be interesting to hear what SF and Ireland's Future say in response.

https://www.iiea.com/publications

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972727#Comment_121972727

Completely different circumstances in a different era. Unification tax in Germany only ceased a few years ago.
People have free movement accross the border here, it is often difficult to discern exactly where the border is if you do not live in the area, so I don’t see any emotional reason to take on that tax burden in the same way Germans did so that those who were isolated by the Soviets could rejoin the West.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972702#Comment_121972702

I would pay zero attention to what ANY politician would have to say on the matter.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972794#Comment_121972794

so I don’t see any emotional reason to take on that 

You don't. But that doesn't mean there won't be a sizeable amount who will see a reason

stooge

sure it's only money…. why pass up such a chance due to greed? Report is a bit pessimistic in terms of factoring in nationalists in the north rapidly improving their productivity in order to make it work.

FrancieBrady

Being dissected on Radio Ulster this morning:

Headline comments on this rehash of previous work by Fitzgerald:

Doesn't look at convergence.
Doesn't look at getting NI ready for a UI.

Problem is that it assumes the full 12 billion subvention has to be found by the Irish state, this is wrong.
There are other reports that put the subvention at a much lower figure once key figures are subtracted.

Programme on going. Fitzgerald due to defend his report shortly

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972745#Comment_121972745

Being dissected on Radio Ulster this morning:

Headline comments on this rehash of previous work by Fitzgerald:

Doesn't look at convergence.
Doesn't look at getting NI ready for a UI.

Problem is that it assumes the full 12 billion subvention has to be found by the Irish state, this is wrong.
There are other reports that put the subvention at a much lower figure once key figures are subtracted.

Programme on going. Fitzgerald due to defend his report shortly

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972817#Comment_121972817

Where are you getting 12 billion from. That's what the UK are currently putting in but add on the further costs in bringing the north's welfare payments up to the level in the South (currently they get about two thirds of what they get in the Republic) and its nearer to 22 billion!

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972794#Comment_121972794

I never said there was an "emotional" reason to take on a tax change: I said the entire question would itself be an emotional equation about the reunification of the island into one political, cultural entity. That will drive a large component of those arguing for a "Yes" in this spitball referendum.

You cannot deny that a large aspect of the conversation will be around the historical, cultural, emotional concept of Ireland re-uniting after all these years etc. etc.. You say it's a hurdle you cannot get past: fine, as is you're right & will doubtless lead the "No" campaign. But for a great many it's not going to be that pragmatic a choice, or that simple a case of rejection because of the money. As you say we have a soft border and that logic bounces both ways; if it's already a grey area then why not tie off the last remaining institutional loose ends.

If every election and referendum was taken as a purely pragmatic and logical decision to make, we'd not have half the problems that have existed in our world today. Certainly things like Brexit wouldn't have happened given the clear economic self-sanctioning it ultimately yielded; it was instead a definitively emotional decision taken under the false pretence of "taking back control" and this wooly notion of UK going it alone.