There's a reason why this generation is "worse off" than their parents

JizzBeans

I'm referring of course to the Prime Time segment about Holly Carins remarks on her generation being worse than that of their folks. The segment went on to regurgitate the usual sound bites & interviews in the street malarkey:

"I have a good job and cant buy a house", "I went to college and cant buy a house", "I done everything right and I cant buy a house". Lisa Chambers didn't stand a chance trying to make her point with this nonsense in the background. This blame the government noise is getting so old now, cant open a newspaper, listen to the radio or watch TV without hearing about the gripes of this generation. Its always someone else's fault, banks, cuckoo funds, government, builders, landlords.

Society does not revolve around these people and only have themselves to blame, at least in part, for not owning their own home. Ive said it before, If you choose:

-To spend 4-6 yrs in college for a bullsh1t degree

-Change your car every couple of years/ avail of PCP

-Multiple holidays & city breaks each year,

-Load up on the latest tech & fashion,

-Travel the world for amazing experiences,

-shag of to Australia for 2-4 yrs.

-Become an influencer

Then don't be surprised if you have little to no savings or prospects down the road. Previous generations did not generally delay themselves with these sorts of choices. A house isn't something you can just have on a whim, its takes a lot of planning, saving and sacrifice. Its always seems to be someone else's fault, banks, cuckoo funds, government, builders, landlords.

AnFearCeart

Bring back the days when a man could build his own home and support his wife to rear the kids as a stay-at-home mum. It worked. But from the government's point of view they wanted to turn the average family from a one taxpayer model to three.

Husband working - tax

Wife working - more tax

Childminder working - even more tax

For all that tax that's going in, you'd suspect life is getting better. It's not.

Padre_Pio

Yawn...

We're probably onto our second generation of people who are dealing with a completely broken housing market and people are still coming out with this sh*te

passatman86

Im 99% sure my grandfathers paid 5,500 and 7,000 for their houses around 45 years ago.both within a mile of each other in Dublin. The 5,500 house was 500 pound extra because it was a corner house with enough space in the side garden to eventually build another house.

Compare those mortgages on around 120 pound a week to today's wages and house price's

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058290738/theres-a-reason-why-this-generation-is-worse-off-than-their-parents

Do you guys not blame avocado's anymore?

Witcher

Before I even opened the thread I knew it would be this horseshít.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429625#Comment_120429625

10 times the wages or less vs 80-100 times the mortgage.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429625#Comment_120429625

in the last three months of 1978, the average gross price of a house in Dublin was £22,300

They got a bargain. I'm sure people these days wouldn't complain either about getting a house for 25% of the market rate.

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429613#Comment_120429613

Agreed that the housing market here is completely broken for some time now. People who never made any of the financial mistakes listed in the opening post still have very little hope of owning their own home and it is not just a recent feature of the Irish economy. Houses here do not need to be as expensive as they are, but while paying lip service to the idea that something should be done, the politicians in power here have done nothing substantial to reduce the cost of housing and the politicians in the opposition parties have made themselves sound so naive about economics that no one in their right mind would want to vote for them to take control of the country's finances.

FF/FG/Greens stand for maintaining house prices to secure the financial security for their home owning voter base and have no interest in reducing taxation on housing or reduce regulations on housing to allow a better free market develop to bring prices down.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429625#Comment_120429625

45 years ago, 1978, average house price in Dublin was £22,300 according to https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/0518/1049114-upward-trend-in-house-prices/

In the same year the average nominal weekly earnings were €90.47 or £71.23 according to

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-hes/hes2015/aiw/

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429710#Comment_120429710

So as the poster states, compare that to today's wages and house prices.

It be like paying 170% of your wages on your mortgage on a house you got for 25% of the market price.

So a mortgage of €1156 a week on a house you got for like €110k?

Each comparison is terrible.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429710#Comment_120429710

This has been debated to death.

Yes, housing has always been expensive.

Yes, people have always needed to make sacrifices.

So why is home ownership so much more difficult now, as seen in the falling rates of home ownership? You can only get so far blaming avocado toast.

Even by your calculation above, the average house was x5 the average salary. Now it's x8, while the lending limits mean you NEED a couple on at least average salary to max out a mortgage to buy an average house.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429725#Comment_120429725

The housing market is broken, particularly the rental market, no doubt, but the house price to income figures aren't as stark as portrayed in that post. Factor in household income and interest rates, there's probably not much difference in 45 years.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

In terms of houses, yes, the current generation is worse off - but that's more of a supply/demand issue.

In other terms, no. I think people have a bit more disposable 'real' income. Flights and holidays are cheaper now because of Ryanair type flights. There is a much wider range of items on offer thanks to sites like Amazon and can be purchased for a few clicks. The things mentioned in the OP with regard to world travel - well, those are options now. Some people do them, don';t have much money, but sometimes they're happy that way.

That said, if you've a fmaily with kids, it's probably not that easy to be fair. I don't, so can't speak for that particular demographic.

emo72

As a person who won the buy a home lottery (bought house in early 90s) I should be loving it. But I'm not. There should be a revolution. Occupation of the Oireachtas and dept of finance. Just tear it all down. Make the state stop functioning. I've everything to lose, can't understand why the current generation accept this? It's madness.

People who haven't gone travelling/to Australia for a few years/haven't wasted money on trivialities/have saved/have a practical degree... aren't able to afford a mortgage. You can't compare house prices today with those of the '80s/'90s.

Get Real

I'll start by saying I agree the housing situation is disgraceful at the moment

However, and it's a big however, I absolutely get some points in the OP. It may not be popular to say, but there are some truths to be spelled out to the current generation looking to buy (my generation)

We're in a weird situation now where some of the most privileged people are looking to vote for a range of parties that couldn't be further from their view or the background they came from.

I'm from the generation that protested the water charges and college fees. And despised "the man". Not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.

One particular girl in my course stands out. Very wealthy parents, was a 40 min commute to college from her family home. Never worked a part time job, had an apartment paid for so she wouldn't have to commute and a generous weekly allowance.

This now early 30s woman a social media activist for people before profit, Sinn Fein, Paul Murphy et al. The type she is, would gladly sh1t on a retail worker no problem, yet is supportive of the same parties of those she has no respect or regard for.

Also, I think back in 2011,2012 and so on, people were renting 3 bed apartments in Dublin for about 900quid, within 20mins of Dublin city centre. They made a decision that "renting is the new way". When it never was really. 2014 came along, they held out, 2015, held off. 2016 and so on. The tide didn't turn for them, it just got higher.

Now, more than a decade on since the crash, it also appears, there's a huge lack of savings among those in their 30s. Even if you were working in Maccy D's in 2011, a box room was 250-300quid a month. You're telling me you couldn't put away 50quid a week for the past decade plus? 25k savings, multiplied by 2 for a couple, a 50k deposit.

I don't get it. And I'll be slated for it. I understand the frustration and it is an absolute farce of a situation, everyone at all levels should have access to affordable housing.

But I can't help but think, a huge amount of people, through various choices they made, can't access the market. Financial decisions or a lack of financial decisions taken in the past have led to here. I can't understand how some single people with median income like myself can buy a place, but couples on a combined income can't.

I can only assume it's due to past financial decisions. I know that's harsh, but people love to lay the blame elsewhere. And a large amount of the blame does lay elsewhere. But (harshly) I'm thinking there's an element of personal responsibility too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429625#Comment_120429625

Going through some papers belonging to my Dad this week I found the letter from his employer in 1967 confirming their mortgage to him of £5000 for a house in Foxrock.

So that tallies with your estimation.

Obviously there have been changes in building regulations over that time which have made properties more expensive, even ignoring improvements for fighting climate change, there really should be a cheap option for buying a house. Four walls and a roof that meets building codes and is affordable. No it doesn't have super duper insulation so yes it will be cold in Winter - thats why it's the cheap option. In the current property climate, the cheap option, is not cheap, it's the least expensive.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429789#Comment_120429789

Insulation is relatively easy to add at the construction stage and it will pay for itself in a few years. Fortunately, building regs now require proper insulation.

.Donegal.

The only thing your post was missing was buying coffee daily. Misery guts

Jim2007

Every country in Europe has a housing shortage to some extent. What sets Ireland apart is this fixation on owning a house. Nobody in Ireland is interested in solving the housing crisis unless they get to own a house and that just isn’t going to work. We, indeed the whole Anglo sphere, have spent decades proving that a housing policy based on people taking on huge amounts amounts of debt or relying on social services to put a roof over peoples heads does not work and it never will. Probably about 40% or more should not own a house, but there is going to have to be an awful lot more pain before people are willing to look at housing solutions that don’t involve them getting to own a property.

Most of the complaints here come from chasing an unrealistic dream. The developers did a great job in convincing people that renting is dead money and the property ownership is the only way to go. The reality is that paying rent is no different to many of the other services you pay for and financial speaking property ownership is a high risk investment that often result in the owners getting wiped out as we have seen.

Abandon the dream of house ownership, develop a proper rental market and the problem goes away for most people. Austria, Germany and Switzerland all have very high standards of living without requiring home ownership. I live in Switzerland where people have very little interest in property ownership - it’s a high risk financial decision and why in heavens name would you spend decades paying for over capacity? Here people just rent according to their needs - young couples and older people rent smaller places, early retirees often move to the country to enjoy life, moving back later if the need to be near medical services arise. It is a lot easier manage a financial crisis if your biggest financial commitment is a couple of months rent and all interest rates increases means is your getting paid more on your savings.

I know it not going to be at all popular and people will come with all kinds of reasons to continue the dream, but eventually when the pain is sufficient, they will be willing to look at more realistic solutions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430049#Comment_120430049

Out of interest, did any of those countries transition from a predominantly preferred house ownership model to predominantly preferred house rental one? I suspect that change of mindset would be difficult to achieve and is only possible if the population never saw ownership as an aspiration.

I don’t agree on all points with the op, I do however think there is a sense of entitlement to be found in younger people today that was not there with older generations. I really don’t see why having a college degree, or a job should mean that you should be able to buy the house you want, where you want. Everyone knows there is a shortage, and that higher earners can generally outbid lower ones for limited stock, that is the way markets have always worked.

Jinglejangle69

There is definitely some truth in the OPs points.

Look at all the consumerism and goodies we have access to nowadays compared to our parents.

My folks saved borrowed and worked constantly to get a deposit and mortgage.

They had no couch when they eventually got a house and basically ate beans and toast until they could afford proper cooking facilities.

The housing situation is messed up but it’s unfair to not acknowledge that our parents generation had to make huge sacrifices to own a home and they definitely didn’t have a lot of the goodies we take for granted nowadays.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429869#Comment_120429869

In my day/bludy kids these days/something something and their smashed avocado on toast.

francois

Anyone blamed woke kids yet?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058290738/theres-a-reason-why-this-generation-is-worse-off-than-their-parents

There might be a small bit of that but lets not paint and entire generation/class of people with the same brush.

Ultimately there aren't enough houses in the country for all the people that are in the country either for rent or for sale. Those that are there are ridiculously priced in rent and sale price because of this and other factors. Ultimately they the pricing is something outside the control of the people wanting to rent or buy.

As you've said the ability of the individual to pay that pricing can ultimately be effected by some of the things you've mentioned but I don't think it is unfair for people to expect that they have the ability to buy/rent a house for their future and realisticilly the prices of this is out of their control.

Wages simply haven't kept up with house/rental price inflation.

sydthebeat

Take 1995 as an arbitrary year

Average house price across the country was €78k. Average industrial wage was €20k. That's a ratio of 3.92.

In 2023 the average house price is €309k. The average industrial wage is €45k. That's a ratio of 6.87

Government policy over the last 30 years has led to this. Not holidays, shopping, consuming etc.

This is the singular biggest reason we have 30 somethings still living at home with their parents in 2023. Government housing policy has failed so miserable that we are now in they midst of a total crisis

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430292#Comment_120430292

I think it is also what existing house owners want (to a degree anyway). Any solution that impacted on house values would cause major anger.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430292#Comment_120430292

There are too many reasons to list as to why the conditions in 1995 have no relevance today.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430302#Comment_120430302

As we saw in 2008, it's not just government policy that can influence house values. House values had always been a fluctuating asset, but one which really only affect speculative investors, not owners ie if you sell low, you buy low.

House values to long term owners isn't really an issue at all

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430304#Comment_120430304

As I clearly said, it's an arbitrary year

However there's a very, very obvious trend upwards in that ratio since the end of the 80s. That's undeniable. And if anything the rate of difference is increasing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430319#Comment_120430319

Have you considered any other data rather than just looking at house prices?

Hint: Population, employment rate, number of high paying jobs, availability of properties etc etc.

Andrewf20

Has anyone mentioned women in the professional workplace? I suspect house prices are largely down to the fact that alot more women are working professional jobs now vs the 1980s/90s as the irish economy started to take off. Its great for women's opportunity but it has led to an acceleration in house prices.

Between 1995 and 2002, women in the workforce jumped from 500K to 678K which was biggest jump ever seen between census's in the history of the state.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430328#Comment_120430328

???

That's exactly the point!!!????

Government policy has completely failed to allow for these factors.

You can still blame the doctor for not curing the illness that cause the symptoms. You don't just throw your hands to heaven and say, oh no I'm sick I just have to deal with it.

Development policy, lack of investment in housing schemes, tax choices, regulatory rigidness, defunding of local authorities, planning bureaucracy, purchasing options etc are all within the gift of government to augment as the see fit. Unless they are denying there a problem, they have to accept that for decades now they have failed to address the factors you have referred to above

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430328#Comment_120430328

If you take housing out of the equation you would be hard pressed to find many other negatives for younger generations in comparison to decades ago.

Every generation has its issues and I’d imagine everybody feels that their own struggles are far worse then everybody else’s.

Just listening to my mother in law tell me about living in a one bed 2nd floor studio room with three kids and having to go up stairs dragging a pram is enough to have me feeling like I didn’t have it so bad. She wasn’t complaining either, they eventually moved to a 3 bed semi in a nice part of Dublin.

Looking at it from my children’s point of view, they have far better education system, a much more empathetic and mental health approach to struggles. Far less tolerance of violence and bullying. The church has no hold over them so less opportunities for peadophiles in that and in sport (who have vetting systems). Even during covid I was well prepared for that and it was actually an ok experience for my kids.

I was adopted so started my life in some nuns orphanage, I think it was st pats where I believe some dodgy stuff went on but like I said we all have our struggles.

I think social media and the in your face wall to wall media coverage has them drained with negative stuff that gives the feeling of “it’s worse than it ever was”. I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that this mental health epidemic just seems to get worse and worse as our over use of digital devices and instant news increases.

I couldn’t afford to live in Dublin in the 00s when I finished college so live in a commuter belt town that most couples could afford. Back then there was a 10% difference between what I paid and a neighbour paid for a house being built beside each other, it was unreal trying to get a house!

When I bought my house it was right at the peak of 2006. My salary with my wife was circa 1-6th of the mortgage we got , so people need to stop going on like the mortgage to house prices has all of a sudden spiked. My house is only now getting back to the value I bought it for and I hear people whinging about house prices as if they are the first generation to be hampered by price. I’d be far better off now then I was in 2006 if I was buying today.

I know somebody looking for a house for years and they refuse to lower their prices expectations (I have to live in this area) and go on like the “can’t afford a house” which isn’t the case. Then they go spending money on holidays and clothes they don’t need while saving more of a deposit! You have to sacrifice some luxuries.

Do I worry for my children? No, I don’t, they can stay with me for as long as they need to. I am going to encourage them to save and spend prudently, a lesson I didn’t get in the “here’s a credit card with thousands limit as you go into college” years. They will inherit my house so will always have some sort of deposit to look forward to and if needs be I will leave a will where not one of my children can be homeless after I die (so House cant be sold).

Is it ideal? No , it’s not, but I won’t let my children act like victims in an ireland that has far more advantages than disadvantages over most other generations. I think people can allow this to consume them whereby it’s the only think that matters to the detriment of everything else.

In saying that, I do think everybody should have access to accommodation, medical assistance, education and food as a basic right in ireland. I just don’t believe this generation has it as hard as they think is all I am saying.

landofthetree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429760#Comment_120429760

They are buying houses like mad.

Banking & Payments Federation Ireland figures show that between January and September, FTBs borrowed €4,656 million for the purchase of 17,761 properties. Some 12,104 of these were second hand while 5,657 of them were new, which is 1,171 more second-hand units and 929 more new homes than in the same period last year.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430328#Comment_120430328

Also availability of mortgages. Back in the 70s they were much harder to get. This lead to rise of the building societies.

My parents house was 10k in 1972, a neighbors house was 12k in 1971. A drop of 2k in a year for the same 1920s house. My fathers salary was 3k at the time, 10% deposit and a mortgage of 3 years salary. These houses now go for 1.6-1.8m, and the buyers thrown more money at them to bring up to modern standards.

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430049#Comment_120430049

 Probably about 40% or more should not own a house, but there is going to have to be an awful lot more pain before people are willing to look at housing solutions that don’t involve them getting to own a property.

Abandon the dream of house ownership

Let me guess...you own a property.

Cody montana

Like a Facebook rant from a disgruntled relative that hates everyone and everything.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430472#Comment_120430472

And ignoring the obvious difference that we're sitting on a retirement time bomb, for renters.

We have zero options for retirees and security of tenure

HerrKuehn

I think a lot of the younger generation look at the outcomes of previous generations but disregard the difficulties in getting there. Their own outcome (in terms of housing and wealth) hasn't been determined yet. I think there will be opportunities to buy in the future for those who manage to save while they are young. I think some understand this, you need to accumulate savings/wealth starting in your 20's. Obviously for some it is easier than others, but if you are living at home for several years after college while working, you should be saving large amounts each month.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058290738/theres-a-reason-why-this-generation-is-worse-off-than-their-parents

While those people night be misguided I agree with that part, but so are you.

The cost of housing vs wages is completely distorted out of proportion. From 3 or 4 decades ago.

The other aspect is Dublin and Ireland was in many aspects a run down backwater kip. Half of it was derelict. It wasn't on the map like it is today. It's unrecognizable from what it used to be. It's completely unrealistic to compare them.

dublin49

I bought my first house back in 1990 for 48K and at one time interest rates rose to 15% so its pointless comparing prices then and now.In my view house prices are affordable to a good proportion of potential buyers ,theres just not enough supply currently available.We need more change of ownership to suit needs so first time buyers should start off buying apartments,trading up to houses when kids arrive and older couples trading down from big houses to Apartments when that is more appropiate to their needs.

Galwayguy35

It might have helped if Prime Time interviewed a few ordinary people instead of posh talking folks from South Dublin who were born with a silver spoon up their hole.

The bank of mammy and daddy is always an option for those people.

Having said that its a sellers market these days, even in an area like where I live the prices for the few houses that are up for sale is crazy.

I bought back in 2007 at the tail end of the boom, its a 200 k mortgage over 30 years and to keep it paid its a no frills lifestyle, I'm not sure if the 20 somethings would be prepared to put up with no holidays or travelling the world in order to get a mortgage and a house even if more housing stock was available.

The Ireland they grew up in was a lot more comfortable compared to the one I grew up in back in the 1970s and 80s.

NIMAN

If I think back to my parents in the 70s and 80s, they definitely did not spend money foolishly, at least not compared to how I have spent money over the last 25 odd years.

I have had numerous holidays and city breaks, hundreds of nights on the beer, money spent of gadgets, home cinema systems, dvds, cds, clothes etc.

There's no comparison to how they spent their money and how I spent mine.

Flinty997

The lack of supply relative to demand is the only issue. They could also make cheaper housing.

But no one wants to do that.

A house or property in the 70s or 80s was far more spartan (and colder) than properties built today. One bathroom. Single glazing. Cheaper to build also. But it would be better than nothing.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430574#Comment_120430574

Very true. They were thifty. Money was hard got so not spent easily.

tayto lover

I don't see anyone going to school in their bare feet like many of us did or trying to catch a few rabbits or fish for the dinner. Only those with money went to college in the early 50's and few even went to the tech or any secondary school. It was off to England or the US to work on building sites.

Holly is obviously just another snowflake.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430608#Comment_120430608

One thing that occurred to me was Holly is not as rich as her parents as she hasn't inherited the farm yet. When she does, with the TD's pension, she will be even better off than they were.

The opening comment is the typical guff from a greying fogy who has lost touch with reality. It's endemic in the most privileged generation (boomers) the world has ever seen.

It's a bit late to tell them to grow up.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058290738/theres-a-reason-why-this-generation-is-worse-off-than-their-parents

...yes its definitely the fault of younger generations, definitely, and absolutely nothing to do with the fundamentally flawed political and economic ideologies older generations have been pursuing for decades, definitely not!