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There's a reason why this generation is "worse off" than their parents



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,077 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78

    ....the influence of more women entering the workforce is more coincidental than anything, the rapid rise in the value of assets such as property truly occurred due to the large-scale global expansion of the financial sector over the last few decades, which has been encouraged and facilitated by governments and state institutions, including major institutions such as central banks etc, this in turn has caused the rapid expansion of the money supply, in the form of credit, and the rest is history, but most have still not accepted this yet, and may never!

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭Christy42

    I think overall it is a better system but you are missing out on the pieces that make it work.

    Ireland has many landlords who only own a few properties and, as can be seen with the issues around the eviction ban, may want their property back to live in, to sell, for a nephew. Imagine living somewhere for a decade and then being kicked out. What are the current odds of you being kicked out of your property if you pay rent and generally are a good renter? Pretty slim I would guess or you would be less happy with your current situation.

    This combines with the housing shortage. If you do get kicked out then there is realistically nowhere you can go. You may have to take the kids out of their school, add hours to your commuting time simply to get a new place here or move home with your parents.

    People want security, not home ownership. It isn't just about having people ok with renting when it is factually a terrible idea to try and build a life that way if you have the option to buy (in Ireland). If you make renting a good solution for people to live their lives than attitudes will change as you have in Switzerland.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,315 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    How early in the relationship do you ask if he/she has the price of a deposit saved?

    If you think the only way you are going to own a house is to find a partner who can help to afford it, either you are looking in the wrong market for you, or your choice of partner is going to be limited by how much they earn, and save.

    Post edited by Dav010 on

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    I think a partner's financial habits would be an important consideration for compatibility and conflict avoidance. It is certainly one of several important factors and I certainly wouldn't dismiss it. Being in a couple reduces costs and increases the ability to save which I would assume "[Deleted User]" means. The 3.5x rule is based on both salaries, so having someone even with an average salary will significantly increase the mortgage he/she could obtain. I don't think many would think too much about financials when dating, but I can't imagine that being long term unemployed would be a particularly sought after trait.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    It was already posted as a stunningly witty and original riposte

  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭subpar

    Buying your first home was never easy.

    People in reasonable employment should be able to aspire to own their own home.

    If they cant afford it then there are only two reasons.

    1. Their salary is too low , especially for anyone with a third level qualification . Employers , particularly the global multinationals are taking too much profit out of their business and paying the executives and shareholders too much. In short this generation are under selling their education and qualifications and need to get organised in the workplace similar to what previous generations did. In other words join a union.
    2. . They are spending too much of their income on leisure and pleasure activities and need to learn about deferred gratification.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,315 ✭✭✭✭Dav010

    You think the answer is MNC employees getting paid more? I would have thought higher paid tech employees competing against lower paid workers in other sectors is one of the glaring issues at the moment. If fintech employees get paid more, it would have the effect of pushing house prices further out of reach of nurses/teachers/Gardai etc.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,049 ✭✭✭Tow

    House prices come down to basic school level economics of Supply and Demand. The population is increasing and Builders are not building. The population increase is mainly due to immigration. The indigenous Irish birth rate is around the same as the death rate.

    While the typical MNC may pay more than the traditional Public Sector job. The number of employees they bring into country is putting the pressure on our limited housing stock.

    So we can have plenty of employment and lots of tax comming in to pay for services (well spent is another debate) or revert back to pre 90's. Houses were 'cheap', but you needed a good job with a financially sound employer to get a mortgage. Just having a 'good job' was not enough.

    When I left school getting any job was hard. In 6th year we were talking about going on the dole, going to college and then the dole or leaving the country to find work. The lucky handful could get a job in the family business.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    It should also be mentioned that in public sector remuneration there is an implicit "security premium" which has to be taken into account when comparing with the private sector. If your MNC is losing money they will let hundreds/thousands go, if you work in the PS they will just stick a USC of 0.5-11% onto peoples salaries to keep you employed.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,049 ✭✭✭Tow

    And the Gold Plated pension, which (pre 96) is linked to current salary of your previous position. My old man on his public sector pension has so much money comming in he does not know what to do with it.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    The newer "single public service pension scheme" is more like an employer 7-10% contribution, without risks of course. So it is nowhere near as good as the old. Anyone hired from 2013? on would be on this scheme, so they don't have the great pension. Although in saying that I would imagine the majority of the PS staff are still on the old scheme.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden

    My cousin and his wife have been living in his parents house for the last 4 years. They moved in to save up a deposit for a house. My uncle doesnt charge them a penny rent or bills or food or anything like that so that they can save the deposit.

    Just before Christmas my uncle called up to me and asked had I a loan of €20k. I asked what for. He said he wants to lend it to John (Not his real name) so John can buy a cabin to live in in his garden.

    I said no. I know John and his girlfriend very well and they owe me money already. I told my uncle that im not giving him money to give to that pair of wasters to spend. Where is their deposit gopne that they were saving. My uncle said he had his savings (He is 70) that he was going to give him and he would get a credit union loan for another 5k.

    So full story is that John and Meaghan (not her real name) moved into the house. Never paid a penny. Spent all the money they werent paying on bills, food and rent on holidays, an Audi and a BMW. They have been leeching off the parents all that time. Meaghan doesnt get on with my aunt, and it came to a head as my aunt is sick and ended up getting carted off in an ambulance after another row with her. At last my uncle told them they had to leave. The solution they said they wanted to do was build a cabin in the garden. My uncle said ok to that. Then they said they had no money and couldnt afford to buy it and would my uncle lend them the money to buy it.

    They are some pair of scum bags and are not fit to be near his parents. They are always pleading the hard case and its always someone elses fault. I believe the only thing they are sorry about is that my aunt and uncle havent died yet.

    I'll stop my rant there :)

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    I know who this is, you could have at least used a slightly different name, "Meaghan". It's obviously Harry and Meghan.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    First off if he get rid of you job and offers you a lesser role you are entitled to redundancy. Statutory is a minimum of 2 weeks/ year. He will also have to provide you with certain other benefits.

    At present a welder would be on at least 800/week in most situations. Statutory is limited to 600/week so 20 weeks is 12k. However as you are probably the longest welder there he will find it hard to take you off welding unless he moves all the newer ones first. If he wants to make you redundant he have to top up the payment.

    Welders walk into work at present know a lad not far from me is working piece rate for a fabrication company. They drop and collect the work from him. The plant is 30+ miles from him. He has his own workshop.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    Yet the repayments over 35 years would be between 25-28% of there combined salaries and still less than 30% for a 30 year mortgage.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    The amazing thing I see ( admittedly outside the big smoke) is those that are getting on with things are managing grand. I see a lot of you g couples in average jobs buying houses, I even see single people now starting to buy up small town houses and use the vacant house grant and the insulation/ energy grants to do the houses up substantially.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    The mortgage would be around 2k for 30 years at current interest rates. From tax calculators it seems 2 x 45k would come out with €5900 per month. So it would seem manageable at the moment. What about if they have kids though? They will either be paying childcare or reducing working hours, both of which reduces the disposable income. The 5900 is also not including pension contributions which I would assume they should be making. It also doesn't take into account higher interest rates in the future. The rules are there because in the past both lenders and borrowers have shown an inability to assess risk properly.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    It would still be at or near the 1/3 affordability metrics at that. In five years time that couple with 2% pay rises ( conservative estimate for Dublin) would be earning 100k. Government intend to target this cohort and keep them out of the high tax bracket as much as possible.

    If they were public servants add another 5k to that. Daughter is a teacher 5 years qualified at nearly 50k now in 5 years tim with average 2% pay rises and increments she will be on 60k. If she gets an AP2 post in that time frame it's another 3k.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    This is exactly the sort of optimistic thinking that had us in the last mess. There is a reason to have the rules. If the rules were removed, there would be no cap whatsoever on price rises. All sorts of unexpected things can happen in the future, so borrowing up to maximum current affordability or even taking future projections into account is not wise at all.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,020 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore

    Needs must. What are their commutes like though?

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭Potatoeman

    Rents are too high so those renting can’t save a deposit.

    There are to many people arriving into the country and not enough properties being build.

    This is basic planning and very much a government generated problem. It just so happens that most of them happen also to be landlords.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    If there is some high level conspiracy around TD's being landlords and making decisions that benefit them, why would they bring in things like RPZ, increased taxation, difficulty in evicting tenants etc?

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭Potatoeman

    Incompetent or corrupt, take your pick the end result is the same.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭monkeybutter

    me auld mam somehow managed to travel all over europe in the 60s and 70s on little money so the costs you are suggesting aren't correct. Somewhere in the middle given mortgage payments were lower.

    Flights might have been more expensive, but accommodation/food was dirt cheap

    There are plenty of expensive gadgets out there and thats what people seems to buy

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭tinytobe

    I do agree with the idea of future generations being worse off but not necessarily for those reasons.

    They have to deal with ( in most western countries ):

    • Aging population and footing the bill for their retirement, whilst their retirement age goes up and up
    • The overall public debt problems most western countries have these days,
    • Higher overall technology makes professional training and education longer, also technological cycles get shorter
    • Housing issues getting on the housing ladder etc.. is way more difficult these days
    • The changing society of political correctness, from gender equality to other quotas even down to HR related policies to constant gay rights or Fridays for future protests don't make society any better as it hides real problems and causes unnecessary discussions and a split society
    • The looming climate change with all effects droughts, higher food prices, also tied to false political decision, ridiculous regulation and taxes whilst China and India and many other 3rd world countries are planning and building over 1200 coal fired power plants
    • Massive overpopulation in 3rd world countries, corrupt governments and wars leading to migration issues

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn

    Or maybe it is difficult to manage a growing population while also dealing with the financial crisis and property bubble, covid, the Ukraine war and inflation? Politicians are basically salespeople, they don't do anything other than sell their policies to the electorate and more importantly, the state sector employees who will actually have to do the implementation.

    This idea that we need to get rid of these "incompetent/corrupt/uncaring/evil" or whatever politicians and vote in the "caring" SF ones is ridiculous. I am just glad I am not relying on that to improve my situation because it's a pretty grim outlook if that's the best hope.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden

    Well we call her Meaghan from the movie now, but Harrys wife probably fits too :)

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭Sammy2012

    Just to say I'm a teacher and qualified 15 years and am only on a little over 60k so I doubt your daughter would be on 60k after 10 years.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭Hodger

    Its not just Holly Carins who has said this by the way, two years ago the ERSI said likewise.

    " A combination of stagnant wages and higher housing costs have left young workers in Ireland financially worse off than their parents, according to a study by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI).

    The research found that earnings have flat-lined for young people entering the Irish labour market and that workers in their 20s are – in real terms – earning less than they did in the 1990s and 2000s."

    On the point of cuckoo funds it is a fact that when my parents and many of our parents were getting a house there was no cuckoo funds buying up whole housing estates putting people,s ability to purchase and own a home further beyond reach.

    It is also a fact back in the 80s and 90s there was a lot more social housing estates being built compared to nowadays, my own folks bought the council house through the rent on a scheme over a period of years, given that little to no social housing estates are being built a young couple cannot purchase a council house through a scheme like my folks did.

    On wages it was also easier one time to get a mortgage on a single income, I had an uncle who got the mortgage back in the 70s he was working for Waterford crystal, while his wife was a stay at home mom and housewife until most of the kids had grown up and she back to work part time, but the fact of the matter he was still able to get a mortgage on a single income with a good paying factory job, how many can say likewise today ?