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VW ID.2all concept

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    VW putting it up to MG at that price point. Nice to see a bit of competition in the market. Do the other cars in the ID range still take 8-10 hours to update software, during which time you can't use the car? If VW sort that out on the ID2 this could be a gamechanger



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Maybe in Ireland but not in Germany. You can buy a basic unbraked 750kg garden trailer at the local DIY superstore in Germany for €500. They are a commodity item. About half my neighbours own this sort of trailer. The gardens are often bigger here so there's always green waste to dispose of. There's only so much compost you can use. I take four full 1m³ trailer loads of compacted leaves to the recycling place every autumn. That's the sort of thing people use these trailers for mostly. I wouldn't be any way unusual in doing so. If they don't own one, they hire one. My nearest trailer hire place is 2 minutes drive, the next two maybe 10 minutes in opposite directions. The DIY superstores all rent small trailers out too. IKEA will let you borrow them for free for a couple of hours. They are ubiquitous here. VW are going to have to address this as Renault has done with the Mégane. It may do VW absolutely no harm in Ireland but they design their cars for Germany. The lack of towing with the current ID range is often criticised here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Only the major updates take that long, and there's only been 2 or 3 of those so far

    They seem to be trying to up the pace of the updates which probably means shorter updates. But you can choose when the update starts so it won't update when you need the car


    I agree they could take on MG at that price level, however that's assuming MG don't do anything to lower prices in the next 3 years

    Having said that, while the MG sells well, VW are consistently in the top selling EVs for the past two years. It seems having a good brand reputation and nationwide dealership network is helping sales

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Can you just attach a tow hitch in Ireland even if the manufacturer doesn't allow it? Over here that would be an instant TÜV (NCT) fail. The vehicle registration document shows the braked and unbraked towing capacity and the maximum hitch weight. If this is all blank they know the car should not have a tow hitch of any kind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    At that price it's far from an ID for all, it'll need to be much cheaper for people to buy it as their runabout, but I suppose if it's the household runabout they won't be too concerned about specc'ing upwards and the costs that it'll bring.

    Not a fan of the subscription model though, if a car I pay for already comes with the hardware already equipped, I expect to be able to use it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I'll be honest, I've no idea about the legalities of attaching a tow hitch to an unrated car. My guess is that the hitch is detachable and they take it off for the NCT


    I see your point but would you see many Polos towing trailers or would they be bigger vehicles?

    For comparison the new Mégane is similar size to an ID.3 now, so not exactly small

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph



    Ah you'd see loads of Polos towing garden trailers around. The neighbour over the road has a Polo and tows his trailer with it. Our current towing car is my wife's 2009 Dacia Sandero 1.2. It wouldn't pull you out of bed but it has a tow hitch and is legal for about a tonne which is enough for me. I only need to drive it a few miles with the trailer and it does that just fine. It's getting on though, nearly 200k on the clock and we are thinking that its replacement should be an EV. Hence keeping an eye on which EVs are allowing towing. The list was very, very short 18 months ago, maybe just Tesla really. Nowadays it's a lot longer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Think of it like this, how often do you use those features and how will having or not having them affect the purchase price and resale value

    Let's say for example it costs €5k extra to permanently unlock the Travel Assist. Seems about right considering the price difference between the ID.4 Business and Tech models

    Okay so that's an extra €5k, but it also increases the market value of the car. That's an extra few hundred in VRT and VAT to pay, and also it might push you over the grant threshold (if there is a grant by then)

    On the flip side, if you can sell the car with those features unlocked it'll increase the resale value, so you'll make some of the expense back


    But let's be honest, if you went for the smaller battery version then it's probably just a local runabout, and you might take it long distances maybe twice a year?

    Let's assume it cost €100 to unlock the Travel Assist, faster charging, satnav and more power for a month (based on what Mercedes are charging for their subscription)

    It's not money to be sneezed at, but if it costs you €200 a year then it'll be years before you're getting to the €5k price for the permanent unlock


    As I said, this is all up in the air, and I just guessed those figures. It really depends on how much money VW want to make


    But if that's how you get a sub €30k EV then that's how it is

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Time for some German humour from Tomas



    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    The point is, and I've made it before on other threads concerning other manufacturers, is that you're paying for a car that comes with this hardware, and you're paying again for using it.

    You're not paying less for a car if all these features are locked, and then paying upwards to unlock the features. You're paying for these features to be in the car because the manufacturers are certainly not discounting the car if you opt out of everything.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Well we'll have to wait to see how it develops. FWIW, I don't think the base level spec will have all the hardware, but it's possible the bigger battery version will come fully loaded with the hardware

    I see your point but I'll give you a different viewpoint. Say you're the manufacturer, you can sell a car with a certain spec once and make money. Or you can software lock the features, and then you make money on the car after it's been sold, even from subsequent owners

    It can make sense then to sell the extra hardware at cost, or the permanent unlock is your profit margin on that hardware

    For the buyer, well you've got a point that you're paying for hardware you don't need. On the flip side, you can get the capabilities when you need them without having to pay thousands up front

    I'll put it to you this way, my ID.4 has 135kW charging, 200hp and Travel Assist. I need none of those on a daily basis, so if I could have gotten the car for €5k cheaper and instead I'd have to rent those features then I'd have probably gone for it

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,657 ✭✭✭creedp


    I get that argument but Id be concerned that this is the thin end of the wedge by manufacturers and wonder how long will elapse before you will be required to pay a subscription to actually drive the bloody car, i.e. you pay up front to have the car dropped at your door but you wont be able to drive it without signing up to a monthly subscription package



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭sh81722


    This really looks like a winner.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Surely the thin end of the wedge was many years ago when you started paying an extra €500 for a feature to be installed in the car that cost the manufacturer €20 in parts. It's been a long time since consumer goods were priced based on cost to produce instead of a perceived value.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,375 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    20k after grant would be sweet



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    It's definitely not going to be €20k

    Consider the €25k price is in Germany, after 19% VAT, no import tax and a €4.5k subsidy


    For Ireland, you'll be looking at an extra 4% VAT at least, plus delivery charges. So around €27k at least

    That's assuming they don't roll back the grant and VRT relief. If they do then you'll be looking closer to €34k

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    That's been around for decades, it's called a PCP 😉

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,375 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Inflation is a killer 😬

    Think the ID.2 was supposed to be €20k when it came out back in 2019 money

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    During the show VW said they are working on a smaller car for 20k but it won't be available until 2026/7. They also said that by 2030 a whopping 80% of their EU car sales will be EVs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,657 ✭✭✭creedp


    I think subscription services to activate hardware already installed in car is a recent innovation for the car industry and while it may start with higher end optional extras, is there any reason not to suspect it will become more normalised in future affecting basic functions of the car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Again, you've just described a PCP contract 😁

    To some extent that's impossible since a lot of the safety systems are required by law. You can't make the seatbelts, wipers or lights a subscription. Can't make the climate control a subscription either since you need to be able to defog the windows

    Same goes for lane departure and forward collision warning, they're all required to get a good NCAP score


    While it may not be explicitly stated in the test, I guess it's assumed the car needs to be functional as a car for the test score to apply. I've yet to see an NCAP rating on a building


    After that, what's left? Basically heated seats and the radio are the last few things you could make optional, VW have already said the satnav will be available as a subscription

    And tbh, a smartphone with android auto or apple carplay fulfils about 90% of those functions, so you'd probably only sign up if you were roaming in another country

    I get that it's annoying that car manufacturers are making these things a subscription model, but let's be honest, the difference in the amount of technology between a car from 2000 and 2023 is probably greater than the difference between a car from 1960 and 2000.

    All those extra computers, cameras, sensors and touchscreens come at a cost. That cost is going to either feed into a higher base price, or needs to be paid for by a subscription, it's up to the buyer which they'll choose


    And perhaps it's fair to say that VW don't need to load the car with two high resolution screens and all the extras, when a Dacia Sandero has a single screen that looks like a Currys own brand tablet. Maybe it's just adding bloat


    But this seems to be where VW want to be, they're not interested in competing with the budget brands and want to aim for the higher spec markets

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭cannco253


    “retro gauge cluster”

    I know Apple CarPlay showed a future version where you could personalise how the guages looked, maybe VW are planning something similar?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,657 ✭✭✭creedp


    Not sure why you keep referring to a pcp. You could buy a car with cash and still be subjected to a subscription service to activate certain options in the car. I'm also a little bit confused, on the one hand you say there are little to no functions that could be subjected to a subscription service and on the other hand you say that all the new fangled wizardry in modern cars will either have to be paid up front or via subscription service. I agree with the second point, subscription services are likely to become more prevalent in thw years ahead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    But the new fangled wizardry is "cheap" really, isn't it? Electronics have tumbled in price in my lifetime. What do large flat screen TVs cost now relative to a monthly wage? What does a camcorder cost? Waaaay less than 25 years ago. A camcorder was an expensive purchase back then, costing close to a month's wages. Now you have a better camcorder in every cheap phone. The large displays in modern cars look impressive but are basically tablets that even retail wouldn't cost more than a couple of hundred, max. The smaller displays are phablet sized and could cost as little as €50 perhaps. An old school mechanical instrument cluster would probably cost more to make these days!

    The same surely can't be said for the internal combustion engine, which now must perform much better than 25 years ago (emissions regulations have been tightened considerably over this time). I cannot imagine a basic 4 cylinder ICE costs less to develop and manufacture than it did a quarter of a century ago....but EVs get rid of this most complicated component so there should be more money to spend on commodity sensors (the manufacturers are using off the shelf stuff from Bosch, Continental etc., not developing speciality sensors for their particular vehicle, though the sensor may be enclosed in a custom housing so it fits to the vehicle, but the insides are generic or lightly tweaked, but certainly not ground up designs).



  • Registered Users Posts: 765 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    I will be Audi A1 money I expect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    A PCP is basically what you described, you pay some money up front to get a car and then you pay money every month to keep the car. In a few years you either trade the car for a new one or buy it out or hand it back


    The tendency seems to be for people to trade for a new car, although I suspect that's not as popular these days with new cars getting so expensive

    So therefore, a PCP is basically a car subscription service. There's some window dressing with interest rates and residual values, but the principle is the same



    When you referred to having to pay for the basic functions of a car, I assumed you meant the most basic things like lights, wipers and air conditioning. As I said, I don't think a car manufacturer could reasonably make an essential function a subscription (at least outside of a subscription for the car itself, like a PCP 😉)


    FWIW, I don't like the idea of paying a subscription for the extras, I'd much rather just get them up front. But if that turns a €25k car into a €45k one then that's a lot of extra cash to come up with

    So either I have to get a loan or some description, or get a car with a lower spec and suffer the subscription service when I want to unlock those features.

    At least if there's an option to pay upfront for a permanent unlock (this is what VW are doing with the ID.3 for now) then I've got the flexibility of deciding both ways. I agree if buyers are forced into a subscription without the option of buying out the feature then that wouldn't be great

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Yes and no, it's true that consumer electronics have gotten much cheaper, but automotive electronics are held to a much higher quality standard (believe it or not)

    For example the typical defect rate for consumer semiconductors is 500dpm (defects per million). So the semiconductor manufacturers will send 500 did chips in every million

    Automotive semiconductors have to hit 50dpm, one tenth the number of defective parts as consumers. This is down to a lot of the parts being critical for safety functions, you can afford your phone to stop working a lot more than your brakes for example

    That extra quality requires a lot more testing, and so the price goes up


    However, manufacturers don't always use automotive standard products for the non essential functions. Unfortunately they don't always make the computer components in house, VW use the ICAS system from continental for example.

    And those 3rd party vendors have their own profit margins which need to be paid and it's debatable how much leverage a company like VW would have against an electronics manufacturer


    This is one area where I think Tesla really has the rest of the industry beaten, they design most of their electronics in house and either manufacturer them or contract them out. It's a much bigger up front investment but when the cost is borne out by several million cars then it pays off very quickly

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    The only change is that the manufacturer is now giving you a mechanism to activate the feature. In the past you would of had to use a tool like bimmercode to turn it on. I think it's a good idea to give the consumer more choice, and it's gives an opportunity for the 2nd owner of the car to enable it. I guess we do live in a world where consumer choice is now a bad thing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    The cost of all that hardware is being met by the price of the car when you buy it. Like I said you're not buying a discounted car if you opt out. You're paying for it twice, first when you buy the car, and again if you chose to use it.

    It's a win only for manufacturers.



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