Entitlements

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491354#Comment_120491354

No they will not. However eco has been flat rated (with a suspected value in the 65-80/HA) and Criss(45 euro) is a top up on first 30 acres. You only need 1 entitlement to activate Criss( no entitlement needed to activate eco) accross all your land.

I think the Bliss part will reach 80% of the national average.

The lowest entitlements were brought to 150 euro. Greening was about 45 so bliss is 105 on these.an average bliss is about 200/HA so expect the minimum bliss to reach 150-160/HA.

Add eco and it will be 210-220, Criss will bring it to 260-280range in total

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491415#Comment_120491415

Hate to be pedantic but It's BISS.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491354#Comment_120491354

They will rise substantially and the higher value ones will fall. You would find it hard now to get paid for high value entitlements.

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491933#Comment_120491933

But you have to agree his explanations are pure bliss

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491937#Comment_120491937

I am not sure if they will rise substantially. Higher value BISS especially where the value is over euro are not worth much face value. If you were renting entitlements now they are only worth 50% of the BISS value IMO. Sale value is 2.4 for lower value ones. Some of these 3-400 biss value will drop 20-40% over this CAP. The magic BISS figure seems to be in the 145 euro range everything above loses money below gains it on the BISS value. But the additional value at the lower range is not massive often as little as 1-2 euro/year.

joe35

Hi all, I'm not sure how all these entitlements work.

So my story is I've 24 hectares to farm.

4 is land I owen and 20 is an out farm I'm renting.

I have 3 entitlements rented in from the father's farm, but don't really know if it is worth my while leaseing in the further 21.

I leased in 21 last year for roughly 3,500 and the auctioneer said I'd make 2,200 in prophit from the bps.

I don't know how the payments are broken down into the different schemes.

I've eco space and GAEC.

I don't think I need anymore entitlements to claim the eco or other nature schemes. But how much per hectare are the worth.

It's a big investment, and although it's a good return, money is very scarce at the moment.

Sorry for the long message and thanks for any replies

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496872#Comment_120496872

This year you should be able to double your money on any entitlements you lease, the going rate seems to be about 50% of the value of the entitlements so it's win win

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496872#Comment_120496872

You will only be renting the BISS part. You will collect eco and Criss on the 24HA(about 110-120/ HA) worth approx 2750. You will get paid on the BISS part of the three entitlements from your father so you can lease or buy 21 more BISS entitlements. They should be leased for 50% of there value+auctioneer fees(5-6% inc vat).

If you lease ones worth 120 you will have about 53 per unit profit or a bit with 1100 euro.

However you will buy them for 2.4X times there value which I would trying to do unless you ate doing the green cert

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497537#Comment_120497537

Am I correct in thinking the purchase of entitlements is not tax deductible where leasing in is?

That's why I'm sticking with leasing but a lot are suggesting buying here the last few weeks and I'm questioning myself

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497905#Comment_120497905

No it's not tax deductible. However remember you will be leasing forever ( think about people who bought entitlements maybe 20 years ago will have nearly 25 years of payments drawn off them by 2027.

This is especially true now that the entitlements have been split into eco, CRISS and BISS.

There is no claw back on sales fir this year and next year. So I expect a serious amount of sales. I think as well that you can only lease for two years without land before you lose them this time as well

joe35

Thanks for the replies. Makes things clearer.

emaherx

Anyone here in a partnership or joint herd ownership able to view their Entitlement Position on AgFood?

Mine have been "This herdowner does not have any entitlements to display"

I've rang a couple of times and was told, there is an on going issue with partnerships and joint owners, but it has been going on a bit long at this stage. In my case it's simply joint ownership on the herd which is just me and the wife, can't see how there was no foresight to handle multiple names in the software.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498220#Comment_120498220

Same problem here. Has been sorted for the advisors but still seeing nothing on my own login.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498754#Comment_120498754

Is there any hassle adding the second person?

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498754#Comment_120498754

Did you/ your advisor get to submit the application then?

I've a few surplus entitlements to lease too.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497955#Comment_120497955

I don't think you're right about losing the entitlements if you lease them out without land for two years..

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498841#Comment_120498841

Same here, not much demand for leasing at the moment,.... probably will end up selling them but still have a month to decide

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498754#Comment_120498754

Same here too. No joint partnership, just my brother's name on the herd no with mine but nothing displaying on agfood.

I rang them and got the figures over the phone. But checked agfood again yesterday and still nothing showing under entitlement position.

MaxPower131

Moved from Forestry Forum

Hi Everyone,

Just helping out my elderly father with BISS application. He rents out half his land and the other half is forestry. Can someone confirm that he is no longer entitled to claim the Single Farm Payment on the forestry as his stocking rate is nil? Also in that event is selling or renting the entitlements the best option? (He already rents the entilements for the agri land part of the farm) Thanks in advance. I have noticed the lease price being offered for entitlements is well down.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502435#Comment_120502435

You have to check with an Agri advisor. At a guess I would expect that BISS can still be claimed on forestry. There is not stocking rate for BISS again AFAIK.

Greening now eco had been decoupled from the payment. This means that you no longer need an entitlement for every HA of greening claimed.

Not sure if you will get greening and CRISS( top up on first 40 HA) on forestry again check with an advisor or directly with the department of agriculture

Western Pomise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497955#Comment_120497955

Hi Bass, when you say there will be no Clawback on Sales for this year and next year what do you mean?

Is this referring to a possible tax on the Sale?

And when you say that you think ‘you can only lease for two years without land before you lose them this time as well’.

Are you saying Farmer ‘A’ can only lease out spare entitlements to Farmer ‘B’ for 2 years before they will lose them as they haven’t used them for themselves?

Don’t think this was case up to this as neighbour here was leasing out around 8 spare entitlements to a cousin of mine for the last 4 or 5 years.

Hope you get the gist of my points and reply back on them cheers.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506518#Comment_120506518

Before this and from 2025 on there will be a claw back for the national reserve. This was 30% and may well be again from 2025

I was wrong about leasing without land you will not lose them however there is a 10% clawback on the year from 2025. What this means if a farmer has 20 units to lease the NR will take 2 for the year he will get to lease 18. He will get the 20 back at year end. This means that leasing will be less attractive

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506518#Comment_120506518

As far as I know you can still lease entitlements without land without risking losing them.

Entitlement sales are still subject to capital gains tax at 33%

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506564#Comment_120506564

Yes you can but from 2025 there is a 10% clawback to NR. So of you have 20 units you only get to lease 18 each year.

As well there is another factor coming into play. When you take auctioneer fees from lower value entitlements ( about 8-10% between buyer and seller it makes it unattractive.

People leasing it seems are looking for a higher percentage of the unit

orchard farm

as far as I’m aware clawback is only going to effect the sales of entitlements not leasing from 2025

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506692#Comment_120506692

It's where farmers are leasing out all or nearly all( over 80%) of there entitlements

https://thatsfarming.com/beef/entitlements-clawback-2023/

orchard farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506730#Comment_120506730

Yes that was suggested in 2022 but it didn’t go ahead,I got confirmation that farmers can lease out 100% of their entitlements and no clawback,it will only effect the sale from 2025 on.Perhaps it will come in after 2027?

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497282#Comment_120497282

50% of the 2022 value with the greening payment, or 50% of the new value which is now just the BISS payment (BISS payment only 60% of the total 2022 value now aswell)?

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507990#Comment_120507990

Well if you pay €1000 for ten €200 entitlements, you'll get €2000 at the end of the year.

Yea, people who are retiring with good entitlements are getting screwed but we've had a great subsidy run since the 1990s

morphy87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506562#Comment_120506562

So if you’re leasing land with entitlements and drawing them down on the land and giving them back to the owner would the department classify this as the owner leasing their entitlements?