Entitlements

daviddenis

With the value of entitlements going down would it be good time to buy them?

Or rent them?

Siamsa Sessions

Will Ireland beat Scotland in the rugby? We could ask Mystic Meg but she died during the week!

High value entitlements are coming down in value but low value ones are drifting up. Add in the eco-scheme, front loading, and digitisation of areas/parcels, and there’s lots of moving parts.

Every farm will be different. I’m in the market for around 5 additional entitlements but whatever I do or whatever I pay for them might not make sense for the next lad.

Sami23

Anyone here leasing or buying in entitlements this year - what are the prices like ?

Looking to take in some myself but don't know whether to lease or buy.

Limestone Cowboy

Herself was saying she had a client bought some a few days ago for 2.6 times their value. I can't remember what they were worth but assume not awful high value at that. Have space for 20 myself.

Sami23

Yeah was doing a bit of research today and looks like best bet ones to buy are near or below national average so they won't lose value over the next 5 years but open to opinions in that

Limestone Cowboy

She said those one were worth 109 base value but you've the criss and the eco on top of that aswell. Actually doesn't seem like bad value.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425277#Comment_120425277

You will get paid eco without on complete farm without any entitlements therefore it's not a top-up. If you have a single entitlement you will get paid CRISS on first 30HA or part thereof so it's not really a top up either

You are paying for the BLISS part only

Conversations 3

I'm confused a bit by entitlements, is there any info or a general outline of entitlements out there?

brownswiss

I am trying to figure out the value to a Young trained Farmer of leasing land to get entitlements ? Isn't the price of leased land higher than the value of the entitlements? Are Young farmers still leasing land just to get the entitlements ?

Thanks

Sami23

Any update on trading price of entitlements ?

I'm holding off buying them with the hope price will drop as we get nearer the deadline.

cycling is fun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424479#Comment_120424479

I spoke with an adviser recently he was only offering 2 times their value to sell and about 55 percent of the value to rent, anybody know what entitlements are going for rent wise this year? Also am I correct in saying that in the last few years entitlements went for 3 times their value on occasion?

Tileman

Bought some about 5 years ago and they were 2.5 times the money. Allot were 2.7 over past few years.

joe35

I leased in 21 last year, looking for similar again this year.

Its rented ground but I'm thinking of buying 10 and maybe leasing in the rest. Anyone know what's the best value to go with

Anto_Meath

If I understand things correct, once you have 1 BISS entitlement you can claim Greening and CRISS on up to 30 hectares. With the way Entitlements have been broken down now the majority are now worth less than €200 per entitlement for BISS and reducing for the next 5 years. So I would be assuming entitlements would be leasing for less than €100 each and sell for around €200 each.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476449#Comment_120476449

You are only leasing the Bliss part so 50% of that would be the max

Siamsa Sessions

I'm looking to buy 4.5 and spoke to two different brokers in recent weeks.

One was ready to rock on the spot, with 2.7 times the value and value of €210 as far as I remember. He claimed they wouldn't reduce in value much over the next few years. Which is probably true.

The other was more steady and said things would become clear in the coming weeks, with prices of 2.1 to 2.2 for €200-ish entitlements. This is pretty much what @Bass Reeves said on here recently.

I'm phoning the second one back next week.

morphy87

Is anyone leasing land here with entitlements where you have to draw down the entitlements and give them back to the landowner? With the new cap starting this year how does this work? I presume the landowner gets the bliss and the person farming gets the criss and eco scheme? Is this official? If so has anybody any issues exsplaining this to the landowner?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485263#Comment_120485263

There is always a problem explaining everything to lads leasing. Even though it's tax free they still will try to get you to farm for nothing

morphy87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485477#Comment_120485477

Would I be correct In what I am saying? So how would be the best way of going about this? Maybe tell him to have a chat with his teagasc advisor about the issue and see what he says

J.O. Farmer

Officially the entitlements value is only the BLISS.

Whatever arrangement you come to with the owner to lease the entitlements is up to both parties. One might think a fair arrangement would be a percentage of the value but some owners think 100% is fair.

At the end of the day you have to count whatever you give the owner as cost of renting regardless of how they want to structure it.

morphy87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485548#Comment_120485548

But if let’s just say his entitlements were €100 an acre what are they worth now when you break them down into bliss, criss and the echo scheme?

if you were drawing down his entitlements and giving him back 100% of the bliss would this be fair or would he be entitled to look for criss and echo as well?

Jack C

It could be interpreted that greening which was probably included in what you gave back, is replaced by the eco. So would the landowner expect this back? Or maybe the farmer can claim he has to incur expenses in claiming it.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485520#Comment_120485520

Criss cannot be considered as part of the entitlements as it only payable on the first 30 HA therefore for a lot of lads leasing they will use this up on there owned land.

Eco is depending on the way you farm. There is tasks unless you have 10% of the land with eco features. If there is it's not farmable land do you should be deducted it from rental area

After that the Bliss is left. IMO you should just be doing a deal on what it worth to you. I see a significant attempt to rise rental costs this year and I am not sure if they will be viable in a year or so

morphy87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485799#Comment_120485799

So if farming more than 30ha you can’t draw down criss for the land owner

If undertaking eco schemes the land owner would not be entitled to this either

so all they are entitled to is the bliss payment?

You made a point on land rentals prices, it’s gone mad back my way, grazing land making from €500 an acre up to €630, it can’t last, I was speaking to a tillage man that takes a lot of con acre and he said a lot of landowners want a significant rise next year, what they are looking for it won’t pay him to sow crops

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485599#Comment_120485599

There's no need to over complicate it.

You are leasing the entitlements and the land, what does the owner want for all.

If the entitlements were worth €100 and say rent was €500 per hectare the owner probably still expects €600..

The value of the entitlements are now less so in effect the land rent goes up to balance it.

If you have a deal where you draw entitlements and pay them to the owner does that mean you don't pay until you receive payment from the department. From a cash flow perspective you might be better off saying the entitlements are still worth €100.

straight

Buying 101 euro value entitlements for 2.3 times value. Wouldn't see the point in leasing.

morphy87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486268#Comment_120486268

its the first time the land owner is setting there place, the landowner named there price and said the entitlements have to be drawn down and handed back at the end of the year, they never said how much the entitlements are worth so does this leave a question over criss and the eco scheme?

J.O. Farmer

It depends on what the owner thinks their entitlements are worth. Face value it's only the BLISS.

The CRISS and Eco are more similar to ANC as they are area based and not directly linked to entitlements.

Sami23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488286#Comment_120488286

Were ya tempted to go for higher value ones closer to the national average

straight

No, thought the lower value ones were a better deal due to convergence.

Sami23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489766#Comment_120489766

From my understanding the lower value ones may rise slightly but will not reach the national average by the end of this Cap.

Would that be right ?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491354#Comment_120491354

No they will not. However eco has been flat rated (with a suspected value in the 65-80/HA) and Criss(45 euro) is a top up on first 30 acres. You only need 1 entitlement to activate Criss( no entitlement needed to activate eco) accross all your land.

I think the Bliss part will reach 80% of the national average.

The lowest entitlements were brought to 150 euro. Greening was about 45 so bliss is 105 on these.an average bliss is about 200/HA so expect the minimum bliss to reach 150-160/HA.

Add eco and it will be 210-220, Criss will bring it to 260-280range in total

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491415#Comment_120491415

Hate to be pedantic but It's BISS.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491354#Comment_120491354

They will rise substantially and the higher value ones will fall. You would find it hard now to get paid for high value entitlements.

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491933#Comment_120491933

But you have to agree his explanations are pure bliss

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491937#Comment_120491937

I am not sure if they will rise substantially. Higher value BISS especially where the value is over euro are not worth much face value. If you were renting entitlements now they are only worth 50% of the BISS value IMO. Sale value is 2.4 for lower value ones. Some of these 3-400 biss value will drop 20-40% over this CAP. The magic BISS figure seems to be in the 145 euro range everything above loses money below gains it on the BISS value. But the additional value at the lower range is not massive often as little as 1-2 euro/year.

joe35

Hi all, I'm not sure how all these entitlements work.

So my story is I've 24 hectares to farm.

4 is land I owen and 20 is an out farm I'm renting.

I have 3 entitlements rented in from the father's farm, but don't really know if it is worth my while leaseing in the further 21.

I leased in 21 last year for roughly 3,500 and the auctioneer said I'd make 2,200 in prophit from the bps.

I don't know how the payments are broken down into the different schemes.

I've eco space and GAEC.

I don't think I need anymore entitlements to claim the eco or other nature schemes. But how much per hectare are the worth.

It's a big investment, and although it's a good return, money is very scarce at the moment.

Sorry for the long message and thanks for any replies

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496872#Comment_120496872

This year you should be able to double your money on any entitlements you lease, the going rate seems to be about 50% of the value of the entitlements so it's win win

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496872#Comment_120496872

You will only be renting the BISS part. You will collect eco and Criss on the 24HA(about 110-120/ HA) worth approx 2750. You will get paid on the BISS part of the three entitlements from your father so you can lease or buy 21 more BISS entitlements. They should be leased for 50% of there value+auctioneer fees(5-6% inc vat).

If you lease ones worth 120 you will have about 53 per unit profit or a bit with 1100 euro.

However you will buy them for 2.4X times there value which I would trying to do unless you ate doing the green cert

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497537#Comment_120497537

Am I correct in thinking the purchase of entitlements is not tax deductible where leasing in is?

That's why I'm sticking with leasing but a lot are suggesting buying here the last few weeks and I'm questioning myself

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497905#Comment_120497905

No it's not tax deductible. However remember you will be leasing forever ( think about people who bought entitlements maybe 20 years ago will have nearly 25 years of payments drawn off them by 2027.

This is especially true now that the entitlements have been split into eco, CRISS and BISS.

There is no claw back on sales fir this year and next year. So I expect a serious amount of sales. I think as well that you can only lease for two years without land before you lose them this time as well

joe35

Thanks for the replies. Makes things clearer.

emaherx

Anyone here in a partnership or joint herd ownership able to view their Entitlement Position on AgFood?

Mine have been "This herdowner does not have any entitlements to display"

I've rang a couple of times and was told, there is an on going issue with partnerships and joint owners, but it has been going on a bit long at this stage. In my case it's simply joint ownership on the herd which is just me and the wife, can't see how there was no foresight to handle multiple names in the software.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498220#Comment_120498220

Same problem here. Has been sorted for the advisors but still seeing nothing on my own login.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498754#Comment_120498754

Is there any hassle adding the second person?

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498754#Comment_120498754

Did you/ your advisor get to submit the application then?

I've a few surplus entitlements to lease too.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497955#Comment_120497955

I don't think you're right about losing the entitlements if you lease them out without land for two years..

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498841#Comment_120498841

Same here, not much demand for leasing at the moment,.... probably will end up selling them but still have a month to decide

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498754#Comment_120498754

Same here too. No joint partnership, just my brother's name on the herd no with mine but nothing displaying on agfood.

I rang them and got the figures over the phone. But checked agfood again yesterday and still nothing showing under entitlement position.

MaxPower131

Moved from Forestry Forum

Hi Everyone,

Just helping out my elderly father with BISS application. He rents out half his land and the other half is forestry. Can someone confirm that he is no longer entitled to claim the Single Farm Payment on the forestry as his stocking rate is nil? Also in that event is selling or renting the entitlements the best option? (He already rents the entilements for the agri land part of the farm) Thanks in advance. I have noticed the lease price being offered for entitlements is well down.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502435#Comment_120502435

You have to check with an Agri advisor. At a guess I would expect that BISS can still be claimed on forestry. There is not stocking rate for BISS again AFAIK.

Greening now eco had been decoupled from the payment. This means that you no longer need an entitlement for every HA of greening claimed.

Not sure if you will get greening and CRISS( top up on first 40 HA) on forestry again check with an advisor or directly with the department of agriculture