Why wont die hard GAA fans admit football these days is muck?

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820456#Comment_121820456

More significant is his plan to give footballers and volunteers back a bit of normal life. He wants far fewer training sessions, and to cut back the money being spent on backroom teams. This should result in the fitness levels going down, and a different game developing. All I can say his good luck to him with that, if he thinks the likes of the Limerick hurlers will pay any attention. Whatever Jim comes up with, he has the good sense to make sure that the players will buy into it. No point in telling them they have to stay in a certain place on the pitch, or they can't do handpasses. Players have no interest in that sort of stuff.

Another bumper weekend of exciting, high scoring football. Only one game of the sixteen had fewer than 20 scores, and five of them had over 30. Many close games with only a kick of a ball between the teams. This is a golden age for spectators who want to see well engineered scores. They don't waste their time counting handpasses.

Treble double

And again people queueing for 2 hours before throw in to get into a leauge game at the Athletic Grounds. Football is dead alright. I hope this new committee don't too two much messing with rule changes the game is fine maybe a few small tweaks.

I'm more interested in the cutting of expenses for team preparation, hope he makes headway with this, keep the game amateur and feasible for younglads with proper jobs, not makey up ones so they can train full time.

blackvalley

What I find amazing is that the game has taken so long to evolve into what we are seeing today. For years we were stuck with the old “ catch and kick “ mentality where you held your position on the field regardless of what was happening elsewhere. I remember my playing days standing shivering at corner forward while our team was being battered at midfield and in defence . Woe betide the corner forward who strayed a little bit out the field as they would be screamed at by management and fans alike to “ get back in the corner “ with as much chance of getting the ball as Oscar Pistorious has of getting athletes foot . Meanwhile the manager stood hands on hips on the sidelines watching his midfield and backs being destroyed while his six most skilful players ( apologies to all defenders ) stood scratching their mebbs. The first move away from this rigid system was when managers deployed a forward as an extra midfielder to pick up the breaks and then some brave manager brought a forward back to act as a sweeper in the full back line. I clearly recall twenty five years ago when our club got to a county semi final under twenty one. Playing against a gale force wind in the first half the manager brought our full forward back to play as a sweeper. This was a tactic practically unheard of at the time and while we went on to loose the game narrowly the manager was lambasted and almost drummed out of the club for such heresy. Over the years supposed great managers stood on sidelines and watched helplessly as their teams were beaten just because their forwards never got a chance. WHY did we have to wait so long for Jimmy McGuinness to see the obvious solution. And for those who criticise the current system are we not witnessing the GAA equivalent of “ total football “ where you defend and attack as a team. A system that when it was introduced to soccer by the great Dutch team of the seventies was seen as revolutionary.

pgj2015

@ blackvalley Really? I remember lots of corner and full backs travelling up the field to score in club games 20 years ago and look at the likes of keith higgins for mayo, he didnt stay in corner back.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820848#Comment_121820848

Jim McGuinness?

You can't seriously think that McGuiness was the first to abandon fixed positions?

25 years ago I was playing in a 2 man full forward line and nobody passed a bit of remarks on it.

blackvalley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820867#Comment_121820867

Oh I agree that twenty years ago that was creeping into the game but was more of an individual decision than a management tactic. It’s a long time since I think it was Kevin Foley scored a memorable goal for Meath from corner back.

blackvalley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820914#Comment_121820914

No I’m not suggesting that he was the first manager to break the traditional model I’m just suggesting that he was the first to go for the everyone as a defender and everyone as an attacker model. Many managers before him had tinkered around with this idea.

pgj2015

Has anyone ever talked to or heard interviews with players who played both the awful modern football and the good football back 10 + years ago, someone like Bernard Brogan, Andy Moran, Johnny cooper etc

if so, did they mention which was more enjoyable to play? or if there is a problem with the new style football.

piplip87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821122#Comment_121821122

When you ask top level players what style was more fun to play they will tell you "Whatever style we won with"

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821144#Comment_121821144

im not sure, id say the likes of Bernard brogan found it easier and more enjoyable when he had space to move in the forward line, maybe only having to beat 1 or 2 men to score, not get past 5 + defenders.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821122#Comment_121821122

2003 Puke Football. 2014 Cavan football is The Black Death. If it has progressed to being just Awful, that is a good thing. Goalkeepers are having a great time these days.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821254#Comment_121821254

Goalkeepers may be having a great time but we aren't watching it.

dxhound2005

Although it is not entirely new, it is great to see the widespread acceptance in modern times of the new role of the goalkeeper. And it shows that players and coaches are able to adapt and develop new tactics when needed. It is not a thing in hurling, so it must be a case of it not being needed in hurling. The pass back to the keeper has also become common, a great addition to the moves available to defenders when they are under pressure.

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2021/08/03/news/never-standing-still-the-evolution-of-goalkeeping-2408084/

Brendan Bendar

Now that Jar. is at the wheel, we won’t have to count handpasses, of course the handpass will still be there but in a more sensible way.

Less chance of a borefest with wise sages with notebooks on the sideline marveling at “player movement” while the ball moves back and sideways.

Hope they sort out the tackle too, or lack of it. Beats running into the tackler ,falling down and getting a free.

pgj2015

would you limit the amount of players who can tackle a player with the ball to 1 or 2? sometimes you have 3 players on the guy with the ball and he cant do anything with it, he then gets a free given against him, this is unfair and needs to be changed.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821508#Comment_121821508

He can drop it…release it bit like rugby

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821522#Comment_121821522

sometimes he cant even do that, the opposition players wont let him release it. they want the free out.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820916#Comment_121820916

Yeah I see what you mean it was maverick individuals rather than a more collectivised approach we see today. Kevin Heffernan in the "roving forward" role is probably one of the earliest examples I can think of that moved away from static 15 positions.

I think part of it took so long for football to move on and evolve was because of it's very traditional nature. You would be ostracised by even thinking of implementing basketball/rugby style movements.

`john O'Leary in his book said that he fell out with Mickey Whelan, but later realised Whelan was too far ahead of his time. Whelan tried to implement sports science type of ideas he learnt in America.

But nowadaways even fella's such as Waterford hurling man Derek McGrath have started using the phrase the American "learnings". An annoying phrase but it shows to me that GAA people are more open to what other sports are doing willing to learn, progress develop and evolve.

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To be honest the main thing I would like to see from that Gaelic Football Committee/Taskforce (or whatever it is called) is the scrapping of the advanced mark, it did not does not work.

It will be interesting to see what proposals they come up with, because Jarlath Burns would be more of a GAA traditionalist and Jim Gavin would be more of a GAA revolutionary. Interesting combination.

shockframe

Is there anyone around here that could possibly believe that in spite of the odd bad/disappointing game here and there (you know like what happens in almost every other sport out there believe it or not) the game is actually quite enjoyable across all the grades and the hysteria and hypocrisy levelled at it is quite unfair and unwelcome?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821541#Comment_121821541

Very rarely I would say, Bringing the ball into the tackle is the cause of a lot of the pulling and dragging and hence frees.

I would the onus should be the ball carrier to release the ball . Be more conductive to an open game.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821566#Comment_121821566

do you not think a lot of the time, its the decision of the defenders to swarm around the player in possession? the player with the ball doesn't want to be surrounded by 2 or 3 defenders.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821581#Comment_121821581

The Tyrone tactic wasn’t it…. Hopefully the committee on the rules will clean it up a bit

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820229#Comment_121820229

It is still the game of football though, your arguement seems to be that football was great 12 years ago. But I believe football is actually at its pinnacle now in terms of evolution. The players are forced to think and show movement to succeed and win games. It is no longer the simplistic game of even 20 years ago.

And you already stated that in your arbitrary time frame that "most people" want the game to be what it was like 10-12 years ago. But the reality is that change had already happened by that stage with McGuiinness at the vanguard.

The better teams have a wider skillset - well drilled, have game intelligence. The better they play as a collective, and the more variation they have in their play. I think the league really shows this up.

Very limited teams will still be limited or to use your word "crap" no matter what the rules are. The good sides have more about them whether it be varying from a pressing game. controlled game, zonal marking or man to man. That is just sport.

Another poster mentioned that Jarlath Burns does not view my "rose tinted" view of football. It is not rose tinted I have enjoyed the matches I saw. If it was a shite or poor game I would say so, like the club game examples I gave.

I think it cannot be a coincidence that Jarlath is an Ulster man, in Ulster every team plays defensive football first and attacking football second. If you have two teams playing defensively that is when a "poor" game is more likely to occur.

It is when the Ulster teams play non Ulster teams that we see the best games in div1 as there is a contrast in styles to what you would normally see in Ulster football.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821595#Comment_121821595

Every County is at it, saw a clip of Dublin players doing it lately.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821554#Comment_121821554

A good game is the exception. You'll watch 30 duds before you actually get a game worth watching. Its slow laborious rubbish for the most part in all adult grades bar junior. Junior football and anything from u16 down still is fun to watch. Everything else is choreographed to within an inch of its life. The games might be close but they're not exciting to watch. You never come away talking about superb scores, as 95% of them are worked in to 25m and chipped over. Some of the kicking from 30m out at the weekend was atrocious.

dxhound2005

I must have been very lucky. I was at 2 games out of the 64 in the League so far. And both were good games. What are the chances of that?

I know my stats are very scant compared to someone who saw all 64. And who watches loads of junior football and underage. But if I had figured out that there is only a 3% chance of seeing something worth watching, I would avoid that activity.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822464#Comment_121822464

I think some posters only see what they want to see. They take a small clip. Say look at how bad the game is etc. But don’t look at matches at a whole. It is basically a confirmation bias thing.

The impression I get is some posters go in expecting a game to be “muck”. Whatever they define “muck” as.

The OP of this thread admitted they don’t watch club football., or is it never watches it?

How can someone comment on games if they don’t watch games, nevermind go to games!?

Club football is a large proportion of Gaelic games. It shocked me to be honest as I was under the impression that the OP was a “diehard” /informed GAA man. But seems to be more distant than most.

No other poster (except myself) has looked at the whole picture. Tactical etc.The truth is the good sides vary play. Kick pass, handpass movement off the ball pressing etc. Bad teams will always be bad teams no matter what the rules are. That is sport.

I am curious to know what teams the posters support that say football is “muck”? Division 3 or 4 or what? Those don’t get much coverage.

From what I have seen on this thread those that are going with the “muck” premise. Don’t seem to be able to define what Good football means to them.

I have, variation in play movement speed, control, scores, good defensive structures, counter attacking, running game, they all make up good play. Off the ball movement the most crucial in my opinion.

The fact I have seen all these at a matches I have went to both recently and in recent years. It baffles me. If games were constantly low scoring 0-8 and 0-5. I would understand the premise of this thread.

But the premise is making less and less sense the more rounds of the league that pass. The amount of scores the variation in play. For example Dublin showed two separate styles of Gaelic Football a controlled possession game v Mayo, and a pressing style v Kerry.

The competitiveness of the league is another thing I have not heard mentioned.

Hurling would kill for that level of competitiveness.

But hurling has to artificially change their league structure every few years in the hope of competitive fare! How mad is that?

But here we have the Football league on now (IMO best competition in the GAA) competitive games, teams with varied styles, lots of scores.

I am starting to wonder do people go to live games at all intercounty or club that are whining. Baffling.

What are they looking at?

Do they even know what they want instead?

I don’t think they do? No doubt a poster will pick a game from recent past as an example how football should be.

Before the “handpass” or something it will be said. But I can just as easily pick matches with few hand passes that were poor from the same time period. Probably one I was at.

And the handpsss can be used as an attacking tool or defensive. When mixed with a running game the handpass can be a thing of beauty. Shane O’Hanlon’s goal v Dublin

I am starting to think people are giving out about nothing based on a few clips, or their lack of understanding of the evolution of the game from a tactical nature.

pgj2015

why did you think I was a diehard GAA fan? I never said I was, I played Gaelic football for my club for 20 years and a little bit of underage for my county. Have gone to 2 Gaelic football games in the last 2 years, 2 semi finals in croke park,I did enjoy them as the game is better to watch live in the stadium but looking back at 1 of them games for example, Dublin v kerry 2022, semi final. It doesnt look great to me from tv.

I go to league of Ireland games now at least once a month, the way gaelic football is now has driven me away from GAA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OtMpOlyhOY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch3_xm7MWhI

which on is better to watch? players back in 2014 weren't afraid to shot from distance or kick long, to me that is the kind of football I like watching.

Connolly was some baller, he definitely wasn't afraid to shot off either foot from distance.

mattser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822908#Comment_121822908

2 different sports there. Handball & Gaelic Football.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822908#Comment_121822908

Ah! Thar that explains it, you are going in with a negative premise straight away. And are basing your opinions from a distance. With preconceived notions.

I have already given you long and detailed numerous examples. The long post I gave which referred to the Dublin v Tyrone all ireland Semi-Final 2017 for example, where I pointed out how movement and intelligence can overcome a team who sits back and refused to go forward.

You mention you go league of Ireland games, so I assume you watched Ireland games under Kenny. Why were the majority dull, because the players did not have the still or confidence to go for a forward pass, it was possession for possession sake. Easy to defend against and so on. It is the same if teams play a direct style and lamp it for the sake of it. that becomes tedious as well.

Good players and good teams have awareness of what is around them regardless of style of play.

Of the two games you picked above 2014 v SF v Donegal and 2022 v AIF v Kerry. I was at both live. I was at them. I enjoyed both games.

This is all from the top of my head.

The 2014 game was the reason why football evolved to where it is today, Dublin were shooting the lights out from range in the early opening period (as Donegal blocked the main scoring zone. Dublin naively thought they could blast Donegal out of it. Donegal played possession football and were heavily reliant on the hand pass with a running game.

Donegal then were eventually able to play a counter attacking style and wore Dublin down. C. Toye who came on as sub for Donegal (Grey hair and all) destroyed Dublin on the counter. It was an attritional type of game, It still annoys me that Gavin left Dennis Bastick on the bench for Dublin. I don't even want to rewatch that one if I am honest! Dublin were tactically naive and Donegal did a number on Dublin. Worse still Kerry won Sam that year. Horrible year!

The 2022 game it was a tactical game, Kerry were sore from the 2019 games so changed tact. Context is crucial. That game was one where both teams were trying to psyche each other out.

But there was still some lovely football in game, Costello's goal, Gannon's opening score from corner back after some quick interchange. Kerry's goal was poor from a Dublin point of view they let it bounce in the square. But O'Shea gathered it well and showed composure to finish. and of course he showed excellent technique in his final free to win the match. I knew the fecker would get it, he is known for it.

The game was extremely tense after Costello's goal it was anyone's game from then.

If you want to see good recent Dublin v Kerry games both with Dublin doing a high press - I would look at 2019 AI final first game (Dublin a man down for a lot of it, I already posted a tactical analysis of in another post) and Dublin's last league game v Kerry last weekend. Great stuff.

In the league game there was some good scores from range from Fenton for example, and Con O'Callaghan gave a masterclass of the running game of football. Dublin's movement overall was top tier - Kerry could not cope. I don't know did you watch it at all? It is still on the TG4 player.

https://www.tg4.ie/ga/player/catagoir/sport/seinn/?pid=6347580506112&title=%C3%81th%20Cliath%20v%20Ciarra%C3%AD&series=GAA%20Beo&genre=Sport&pcode=682097

I was at the game and watched highlights. But the game was that good I think I am going to watch the full match again. It was not just the result, but the manner/style of play. I must have said "magic" about five or six times at the match. Kerry fought back a bit making it edgey. But Dublin showed the nous to pull away again.

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I am really curious now what county do you support that you think football is so poor? Is it Dublin? Because if you support Dublin in football and STILL don't like the game., It might just not be for you. Because Dublin are a team which show the most variation in their of all the teams in the country. The best off the ball movement by far as well when on top form.

I would be the same as you are with Gaelic football now with Rugby, I try to watch it but for whatever reason I cannot get into it really. Watch the odd 'big' game to see what the craic is. NZ v Ireland WC. Or maybe a Six Nations decider but that is about it. All on the telly. I have not been to a live Rugby match in years. France Ireland maybe - one big French lump Bastereud came off/on and another big lump came off/on. Rugby can be a very tactical game and it is very hard to see what is going on. Not much seems to happen for very long periods all the rucks and mauls etc.

Your point on watching a game live in the ground v on telly is a good point. At a live game you get to see tactical movement. Even if a match is not competitive you get to see the tactics teams are trying to do - Dublin v Louth Leinster final last year for example. The best vantage point for that is probably the Canal/Davin end near where they serve drink - glass in front

If you are watching a game on telly you might think sure they are going from side to side for no reason, but the good sides are constantly probing looking for angles and showing movement. The attacking side in possession if skilful enough pushes right up on the opponent, trying to force an error. Or get in the scoring zone. To me gaelic