Why wont die hard GAA fans admit football these days is muck?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800263#Comment_121800263

Why is it urgent to act if the games are still good? Again, the league has been good overall. I have been at two football intercounty matches. I did not see anything that needed to be acted 'fast' on except that advanced mark. I have also seen plenty of matches on telly most of them were enjoyable, competitive games. Teams well met etc.

If the league was awful etc then your point might have some validity. Your the game is "dead" or the game is "gone" premise seems to miles off IMO.

But I have seen all sorts - teams running with the ball, handpassing, kicking etc. Even kamikaze keepers.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799911#Comment_121799911

Did people wear their Sunday best back in 2012? 😂 you are talking as if he wants football from the 1950s to come back.

it wasnt kick and hope 10 years ago, sure the kick passes didnt always work out but now players are terrified to kick a pass in case they loose possession, it makes for an awful watch

pgj2015

it isnt the hand passing and tackles that is ruining the game, it is having 30 players in 1 half.

dxhound2005

It used to be a source of great wonderment at games, and people kept pointing it out to each other. Look, look there are only 2 players in that half. And of course one of them was the goalkeeper standing in splendid isolation. Eventually they got lonely, and had a wander up to the other half as well.

event

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798751#Comment_121798751

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799039#Comment_121799039

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799333#Comment_121799333

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799813#Comment_121799813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799917#Comment_121799917

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800015#Comment_121800015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800263#Comment_121800263

What are your suggestions to improve the hand pass rule or the tackle?

bucketybuck

People forget that the quick hand passing didn't come from nowhere, it was a reaction to the mid 2000 "puke football" where teams were swarming the player in possession, they had to move the ball immediately or get bottled up. Limit hand passes and you are right back to the swarm defense again. None of these things happen in isolation, so just saying "limit this" always misses the bigger picture.

For myself, I'm one of the few who sees some value in the forward mark, teams should be rewarded for kicking long to a player who created space for himself. The problem with it currently is that they don't have to kick it long enough. I would change it so that the mark can only be called inside the 13m line. That would make it more difficult to achieve and would reward those who can dominate in the air or the good forward who can create space for themselves, and take away the cheap marks around the 45.

Alternatively, change the mark itself so that it doesn't need to be from a kickout, but can be from any pass inside your own 45. That allows teams to very quickly break out of those situations where 28 players are in one half of the field, just go over the top to a player who can win ball and who doesn't get isolated because he has a mark. Teams would have to react by leaving more players back in defence.

Treble double

I agree about the forward mark, I feel its a positive rule change. Teams are starting to put real thought into it as an attacking weapon, be it the 20m diagonal kick from just outside the 45 to an unmarked player or trying to hit specialist kickers with it. This causes teams to have to try and defend it, which can't be done by just having numbers back and will eventually create wiggle room for other attackers

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800651#Comment_121800651

That is what I asked him as well, no real answer

But it seems to be a bit like the poster just likes giving out. Even when others point out that although football is not perfect - in recent times the league, club football and Sigerson cup has been good, yet the poster continues with the mantra.

When I pointed out the great sequence of play from Monaghan leading to the Stephen O'Hanlon goal (involved handpassing at pace forward play, forward running movement and looking for angles). I was at the game as a Dublin supporter and even I found myself praising it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCTb7GEEilM

The same poster then said that one great goal does not make a great game, a game I thought was a good one. As there was thought in the play, there was tension, there was a mixture of everything in the game. Running game, keep ball, shots at goal.

The poster then seemed to get even more agitated and repeat themselves. That "the game is gone or the game is dead" etc. The posters soul example of this was the Tyrone v Galway game in the league. As the poster stated there were a 37 passes consecutively side to side and backwards from about the 19th minute. At over 20th minute a Galway player was fouled.

Now I watched that sequence again (it is still on the TG4 player), what the poster @Brendan Bendar omitted to point out was that Tyrone enabled this sequence of play because they sat back to quote the TG4 commentator -

-- "Níl aon bhrú ar an liathróid agus tá Gaillimh sásta seilbh a comeid" / There is no pressure on the ball and Galway are happy to keep possession"

The truth is Tyrone played a massive factor in enabling the sequence of play they sat way off Galway, they were unwilling to engage the Galway players. That is not solely a "handpassing" issue. It is created by teams sitting off excessively or a teams mindset.

Tyrone used to do this way too excessively under Micky Harte (which is why Tyrone underachieved and only won Sam with the group when he left, he was not maximising the players he had available IMO) - the 2017 AI semi-final against Dublin is a great example.

Commentator - game shortly after the game threw in 3 minutes gone "There is only one player and that is Mark Bradley inside the Dublin half of the field"

https://youtu.be/emriasRZaOg?si=tZmuEH6qH20lhtjs&t=241

Meanwhile, Dublin patiently kept possession, the key point to emphasis was there was constant Dublin movement, I was at the game. So I could really appreciate the off camera movement. Head up stuff the Dublin lads constantly probing Tyrone's defensive system. Pushing right up on Tyrone. Start of game Maloney "Cian O'Sullivan is up at Tryone's 45 metre line" Remember where O'Sullivan played - he was named as Full back !

Kilkenny constantly did a particular run inside near the D searching out an on running Dublin player, or dragging other players out of position.

--

Here we see how Dublin set the pattern for the game as a whole - there was already comment that Dublin were patient and were willing to switch the play.

Game clock was at 2:54 Commentator (Maloney) "And Tyrone have 14 players sitting back in this very sophisticated defensive system"

https://youtu.be/emriasRZaOg?si=YTcNqMPnTXKmwC7v&t=189

The clock in the game at 3:37 A poor Tyrone pass - Dublin had worked the ball up from defence patiently as Tyrone sat back. It involved handpassing, but it was intelligent and forward thinking

https://youtu.be/emriasRZaOg?si=kp25FRPOjxlSOjyW&t=234

Con O'Callaghan got an early goal after 4 minutes and it was basically game over.

Dublin won the ball from a break down and Con was fed the ball to hit Tyrone on the break at speed

https://youtu.be/emriasRZaOg?si=os-A7QbK_4guVFeH&t=278

Interestingly before the move that lead to the goal the commentator (Carney) said that "Tyrone would be very happy they are pushing Dublin from wing to wing so to speak they are getting their bodies right in along the 45m line" (It was after a Niall Scully rash shot that went wide - one of the few Dublin did that day)

https://youtu.be/emriasRZaOg?si=0txhbfCnVBGC3Wlf&t=264

However, the truth was Dublin were constantly probing for weakness, it was not "wing to wing" for the sake of it. It was a complete misread of the situation, by Martin Carney.

I was at that game and as a result of Tyrone's mentality Dublin's shooting accuracy was incredible. Kilkenny had the run of Croke Park setting up chance after chance around the D - all he had to do was make the same run across the pitch. Patient, awareness of where the best danger position was and where his teammates were. Too many to mention.

Contrast this to Tyrone, Because there was no movement from attack in Tyrone they were forced to take shots from range -

See @7:20 Tiernan McCann - Tyrone wing back, took a good score - commentator (Carney) -

"When you have so little movement up front you have to take responsibility"

https://youtu.be/emriasRZaOg?si=6sW4tAwjwmk3GJrJ&t=440

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Now the poster @Brendan Bendar is being very disingenuous IMO. There is no real analysis of WHY? that passage of handpassing occurred in the Tyrone v Galway league game.

Answer - Tyrone sat back, they let it happen, they did not have the skill to win the ball back without fouling.

Contrast that to Dublin v Tyrone AI Semi-Final 2017, or even the recent Dublin v Monaghan league game. Dublin were thoughtful in their possession in 2017 be it handpassing or kicking, There was constant movement and probing for chances.

In the Monaghan game (which I was also at) Shane O'Hanlon's goal involved hand passing. Why did it succeed? Because it was done at speed, there was quick interchange and movement.

I have come to the conclusion that @brendan bendar either misunderstands the game (it has passed him by) or just wants to blame handpassing as to why the game is supposedly "dead"

But the reality is dependant on how a team's opponent sets up (like most sports) are they a safety first team do they vary play? , how does an intelligent and skilful team is that has to break down a defensive set up (like most sports). Have they movement a running game, are players able to take shots under pressure? And so on.

Also @Brendan Bendar refuses to acknowledge that such goals such as Shane O'Hanlon v Dublin are an example of handpassing done well, mixed with a running game.

So I can only conclude "handpassing" is not the main issue in Gaelic football, it is mindset of teams, managers and how they set up that has a major bearing whether a match is a good one or a poor one in my view.

These days the top sides vary their play (probably with the exception of Derry where the defensive style suits their players strong midfield etc which is why I assume Harte took over) - but to say football is gone or dead on the basis of a period of possession of over a minute from one team Galway v another team Tyrone who sat back - is a false premise.

There is a lot more nuance and thought in Gaelic football now, we had the "defensive counter attacking shock" brought in by Jim McGuinness in his first stint in Donegal. Around 2011 - the crowd booed at the Dublin v Donegal Semi final of that year. I was one of them. McFadden could easily have won the game for Donegal if he scored a great goal chance, that is not lost on me either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAsx_ywcjRY

But I came to appreciate what McGuinness was trying to, get the opposition to engage. If Donegal opponent failed to do so properly, they would break and score. It forced Gaelic football to further evolve. Jim Gavin at the vanguard of it. Revolutionising the game using his keeper as the extra man - even when a man down as shown in the 2019 AI final v Kerry. All types of passing, pressing and bravery were integral to Dublin in staying in the game.

https://youtu.be/kHR1RftyFr4?si=K0SFIqWEZxhbknnd&t=2

The truth is today in Gaelic football there is more thought and planning put into a game of football than there ever has been, be it handpassing, kicking or a running game. There is even variation within matches, but if one team sits back the attacking team is forced to be patient find those avenues, those angles, those switches of play. In today's game of Gaelic football if a team stays static they will win nothing no matter how good they are. A defensive movement/style has to be ready to break, an attacking movement has to be ready to spot weakness/tiredness.

All teams now know that to lose possession you could lose a score, that is why you don't see 50/50 contested balls, sports analysis in the GAA has ended that. The good teams now think possession is valuable. Is it worth the shot? Is the break at pace on? Are a few handpasses going to either tire the opponent out mentally/physically or could it engineer a chance.

Far be it from the game being "dead" in my view it continues to evolve. If passages of hand passing for about a minute STILL make some rage against handpassing as the reason football is "dead" they have not being paying attention properly to not only that game, but even the game of Gaelic football for over the last decade.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803868#Comment_121803868

You have WAY too much time on your hands.

You should be a barrister.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803902#Comment_121803902

Haha that is gas because I did head that sort of legal route in my younger days, but did not pursue it fully. Went a different direction

--

On handpassing issue, I just decided to analyse it once and for all was @Brendan Bendar right about the game being "dead" because of handpassing? I started to think is the poster right or am I wrong?

Then I thought about matches that I was at recently or stick out in the mind. It is not as simple as teams handpassing for the sake of it. Much more complex than at first glance. That is the conclusion I have come to anyway.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803926#Comment_121803926

The handpassing issue doesn't get to me at all. I generally find it intriguing to see how a team is going to break down another team. Of course, that is up to a certain point. If it becomes just too ponderous, then I lose interest.

Being a Dub, you might not agree, but I found the last 5 minutes of the first half against Roscommon last year very entertaining. Roscommon were playing keep ball, the Dublin fans were getting wound up, which is obviously understandable. There was a real tension in the ground especially for the 2 minutes before half time. People were looking at the clock to see how much was left, and could Dublin turn over Roscommon. And instead, Roscommon kicked over a point. It was a real "fu@k you" moment by Roscommon. Of course, Dublin went on to win anyway, but I found it entertaining anyway. That's not a dig on Dublin or anything.

You mentioned about the recent Dublin Monaghan game. That was really exciting too. I was at that. Some fast play, mixed with cagey playing the ball around. They are the best games for me.

megadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804216#Comment_121804216

Correction: The Roscommon / Dublin match ended in a draw. To be fair, Roscommon blew it.

I like the rest of your post though.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804216#Comment_121804216

As another poster said Roscommon was a draw. But I take your point. I started laughing when some Dublin fans booed when the Rossies played keep ball.

I remember thinking do those fans not remember the Dubs killing/controlling games like that. It was up to Dublin to win the ball back.

Plus if Roscommon in the championship played open stuff no way would they have got any result, against Dublin.

Even in the league game v Roscommon it took a Dublin goal late on to make sure of two points..

I think it the games where both teams play defensively for most of the games are the bad ones. Normally happens where one team is average and the other very limited. They are unwilling to take risks or don’t have the nous/skill/pace to break down teams sitting back.

But most teams are smarter now at higher levels with all their training and video analysis. Bit of variation.

Brendan Bendar

As long as teams can make 37 handpasses in a row, then they will, and more if neccessary,there's your problem.

You have been personalising my input for a while, my friend, whilst studiously ignoring that point.

Its up to Croke Park to sort that rubbish out otherwise in my opinion the game will die a slow death.

I certainly wouldn't pay good money to watch teams handpass the ball around amongst themselves for long periods.

Most games that I have watched have the same generic system

TEAM A short kick out to teammate TEAM B retreats back into its own half and parks the bus,TEAM A then proceeds usually with numerous handpasses back sideways and eventually has a shot or is dispossessed TEAM A then trots back to their own half and TEAM B starts the same sequence!!!

Thats not entertainingly friend, no matter what way you want to look at it.

And you can put up 20 pages of bumpf and it still won't be entertainment.

And its the over use of the handpass that facilitates that kind of 'football'.

dxhound2005

Nobody in "Croke Park" has any power to change the rules. The positive aspect about the approach play which seeks to retain possession, is that it produces more scores. More scores than the approach play of the past which surrendered possession far too easily. And as you say, the players will do more than 37 handpasses if necessary.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805349#Comment_121805349

I have not ignored any of your points in fact I went through your points one by one.

Giving examples of matches moves tactics etc to address your point. Yet you still feel your point has been ignored. It was probably too detailed for you. But take your time with it. And give me a decent counter argument to my points? Instead of repetition?

I apologise if this makes you feel attacked in someway, it was not my intent. But if you just repeat the same point at some stage posters will question the validity of your argument. For example in the Healy Park Tyrone v Galway game not once did you mention Tyrone sat back. Puts Completely different complexion on your sole example don’t you think?

In other words the hand pass alone was not the root cause in your example. There were other variables. The fact is Tyrone enabled Galway to make those passes- either by choice or inability to win the ball back legally.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805464#Comment_121805464

In that case let’s be honest, and change the name of the game to handball.

As it is now ,it’s a poor product, and no amount blaming teams and tactics can change that.

constant deflection to ‘the past’ is a poor argument, I am talking about the present and at present Gaelic Football is not a good watch.

easygoing39

It'll be a great spectacle at the Olympics!!

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320880#Comment_120320880

Which shows how subjective the whole thing is. I think Rugby is incredibly boring to watch. It has all the bad bits of football, but slower, less scores and more stoppages

Both Rugby and Football suffer from the same thing. Players are too fit and well rounded now, which means less one on one duals etc, and more possession/ tactical play.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805817#Comment_121805817

qQuick question..Do you think Gaelic Football as played at present is entertaining to watch.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805825#Comment_121805825

I think the standard and quality is better than ever, but due to this the entertainment has dipped. Players are almost too fit and too well coached.

I think rugby, soccer are both suffering from the same

NJSC1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805844#Comment_121805844

Add to this the fact that it’s actually kind of astonishing that it took 110+ years for the introduction of any meaningful tactical approach in GAA in both codes, up until the last two decades it was stick to your positional zone and mark your man. The main priority was win your individual battle.

event

And it was usually the 'better' team won

WesternZulu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805817#Comment_121805817

Agreed - I find rugby very boring and tedious. It becomes even more apparent at a live game when you don't have the commentary and replays to distract you from the constant breaks in play.

Anyway, back to football. I think the entertainment level has dropped while the standard is probably higher than ever. I would like Colm Parkinson's lacrosse type rules trailed where both sides have to have a certain amount of players in a half of the pitch.

I do think that gaelic football suffers from hyperbolic reactions about the state of the game nevertheless. If there is a bad game televised then you'll hear lots about it in the press and online about how something needs to change.

In contrast, most soccer and rugby matches are poor affairs as well but you never see the same type of commentary. Rugby benefits in a lot of ways where most casual fans will watch Ireland and that's it. When you're watching a winning team it doesn't really matter if the game is poor or not. Every game is enjoyable.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806141#Comment_121806141

A fair post and a lot of good points.You are not playing the ‘1950s card’

Unfortunately there are a lot more so called ‘ bad games’ than memorable games being played.

What people need to do is not descend into the ‘bunker mentality’ ,,acknowledge that the entertainment value of Gaelic Football has

lessened considerably and try to fix the issues that facilitate that style of product.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806279#Comment_121806279

You are just repeating the same thing AGAIN.

Are you just going to keep repeating it until everybody declares that you are totally correct in every way?

dxhound2005

It's great entertainment.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806141#Comment_121806141

I thought Colm Parkingson's idea was good but then I realized the players who have to stay in their own half, would just wait just inside their own half?

NJSC1980

When one’s argument is basically “It is the way I say it is and everyone else is wrong” it’s kind of difficult to take them seriously.

At the end of the day this is a sport; sport has no obligation to entertain. Never has, never will. The objective in sport is to win. In order to secure those objectives teams will gravitate towards effective tactical means to do so.

Some find that tactical element fascinating.

You want entertainment? Try Netflix or Disney+ or any of the alternatives.

And don’t get me started on the naivety of believing a rule change will make things more entertaining; teams will only adapt to the new rules and find new tactical means to stifle opposition and maintain possession.

Competitive sports people care about winning. Whether or not those watching on are entertained is barely an afterthought.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806487#Comment_121806487

He heheh…..I’ll be honest, I never heard such rubbish.

I never said everyone else is wrong, I said the game is not a good watch and excessive handpassing facilitates this.

It’s a plain as a pikestaff.

How folk go on with denial is amazing.

It’s an issue, tweak it and sort it out!