Trolling on the Russia thread Current Affairs

Discodog

Is there not a way of placing a minimum post count before people can post?

Spear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058285310/trolling-on-the-russia-thread-current-affairs

No, like so many other things, Vanilla doesn't have that functionality.

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058285310/trolling-on-the-russia-thread-current-affairs

There certainly used to be.

Maybe this is another great feature of our new Vanilla overlords 🙄

Discodog

How about pre requesting - like on the Soccer forum ?

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271071#Comment_120271071

Putting any “restrictions” on the CA forum would be a disaster for AH and other, more normal, forums.

Would a thread on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine do better in the “Politics” forum? I believe there’s much stricter moderation in there.

Discodog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271161#Comment_120271161

I wondered that. The trolling level is insane & as soon as Beasty bans them, they reappear. In some parts of the thread the majority of the posts are from trolls/bots.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271071#Comment_120271071

An awful lot of admin work for 1 person for one thread- not to mention the “why can’t I post in this thread queries” - suggestion of minimum post count though is good- pity it can’t be implemented

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271161#Comment_120271161

It's not about strictness of the forum in this case. What they are posting warrants a banning as soon as a CA mod sees it. It's the reaction time by mods and if anything I think there's more mods for CA so they'd respond faster than Politics.

The individual has started up other obvious troll threads on CA also.

gormdubhgorm

I just find it ironic that the discussion on the restriction of posting is about Russia. I say leave it as is. I have not frequented there in a while. But the impression I get is that the thread is a method just for people to show their support for Ukraine and sneer at Russia. That is the impression I get anyway. That is the thread culture.

That is how all threads on boards work the moderator creates the culture.

Then after that it is self policing like a pub where certain types are welcome and others are not. And those who are not are not of the same vibe shown the door, or not made feel welcome.

The pre requesting thing like the soccer forum only makes things like an exclusive club it is awful in my opinion.

Plus I don't get the pre requesting thing on the soccer forum. Is it an assumption that those who follow soccer are gougers? Does not happen in the GAA and Rugby forums for example.

The prerequesting thing can be worked around anyway. I remember years ago I was trying to figure our this mad password you were supposed to figure out to get into the soccer forum.

I was struggling to get it, would not work. So with a bit of sleuthing and ingenuity I found that someone had typed a soccer password in the feedback/help forums like these. The passwords were changed regularly. But I said I would chance it. And it worked! Make a right farce of the secret cloak and dagger boards.ie system!

If there was a Russian password maybe it should be a must to be written in the Russian alphabet That would fix it!

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283628#Comment_120283628

Wonder if it would be possible for the mods to “deputise” trusted users to allow them backseat mod when they spot these accounts.

They could highlight to other users, who are “engaging” with these accounts, and cut off some of their oxygen.

Other than that, all you can do is ignore and report.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283815#Comment_120283815

That could help alright.

If the 'deputy' had the ability to pause a new account so they couldn't post more until reviewed that would nip it in the bud.

Spear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283815#Comment_120283815

As is the motto for Vanilla, it doesn't have that feature or granularity. Prompt and early reporting is still the best response.

Discodog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283691#Comment_120283691

I think it's more than sneering at Russia. Any sane person can see, read & hear what the Russians are doing & it's natural to condemn it. If anyone seriously thinks that Russia is doing no wrong then they have a problem. But what we are talking about is users who pop up, with a totally pro Russian agenda & post a pile of unsubstantiated lies until they get banned. The majority are clearly bots or paid trolls & probably have the resources & expertise to get around blocks

Discodog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283828#Comment_120283828

That's also what I was thinking. Maybe there's a lack of reporting because it's become so frequent & we are all so used to it.

Gatling

It's just a little bit of attention seeking nothing more ,yes It's annoying but it's a waste of effort having to report posts ,I don't bother with the new accounts let alone some of the personalized Posts I tend to attract.

Beasty

TBH they are more likely to be picked up in CA than pretty much anywhere else on the site.

I would not want to encourage such trolls to post elsewhere to build a post-count to give them access to CA

The only actual way to do it would be to make the forum like Soccer with access to be requested. I think that has been raised before and discounted as an option

If posters report their suspicions we will pick it up and act if we see fit. However if you think it's a re-re tell us who you think it's a re-reg of. If you cannot pinpoint their prior accounts don't just say "re-reg". Anyone is entitled to re-reg, unless their account is banned

Meh it’s a busy forum so it will have more trolls. AH was the same before CA it was the default place for trolls to go. Why?

It has a lot of activity. They get the attention they want. Honestly in my view from what I’ve seen the people complaining about trolls are regularly the ones engaging with them or rising to their occasion. If you think someone’s a re reg that’s been banned or a troll report it and just ignore them.

they do it because they want attention just try not to give it. Also a forum so busy shouldn’t have min post counts etc as some people will register an account specifically to get involved in a thread (and often not to troll). Would just lead to less people bothering and the ones that do posting whatever and wherever just to build the post count.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283691#Comment_120283691

These aren't people simply expressing an unpopular opinion. There is literally no reason to agree with the invasion of Ukraine. Sure, criticising the unsavoury aspects of Ukrainian society is fair enough, scepticism regarding some images and videos... but claiming to support indiscriminate shellings of spaces occupied by civilian families... that's just being edgy, nothing more.

And criticism of Putin is not sneering at Russia.

I'd like the mods and admins to be consistent with their actions on trolls though (and I know what trolling is - it's not mere disagreement, it's goading, sneering and misrepresenting).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283691#Comment_120283691

Just on the soccer forum.. what you said there is pure and total rubbish.

As someone who doesn’t even want access I already know exactly what you’re talking about. Theres two words in the soccer forums charter that are italicised. Those are passphrases and when requesting access you had to include those in your request as proof you read the charter.

A dressing down of how boards handles troublesome forums but you don’t even have the foggiest on the system you just want to deride it 😂

astrofool

Actually, you can just add a "Must have 50 posts" or something similar in the OP (and maybe title) for that thread, threadbans aren't code enforced (it could also be something used when the next elections in Ireland/US come up as that's when the banned/re-reg explodes).

As for the re-reg, there seems to be 2 main ones, MudSpud/pumpum/something with u and one who's names are random but usually gives chatbot style replies before going off the rails rapidly when they get called a troll.

It would (likely) help if the mods could add a comment when they get banned (the thread moves so fast that it can get missed if a ban/siteban has occurred) and say if it was a confirmed re-reg or not (so people know if they were correct in reporting a re-reg).

Remember, at the posters side, it's a black box, mods can help a lot by at least letting users know that something has happened (without giving away the use of or lack of tooling).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120291230#Comment_120291230

There’s no way to stop trolls they will troll. A min post count can’t be enforced on a site level (mods will have to keep an eye same as Threadbans) and therefore nothing stops the trolls rocking in to have their say before they’re nuked.

as I have said if they are a problem ignore them

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120291738#Comment_120291738

Sure, but everyone will now know to ignore them and report rather than respond as they are breaking the thread rules, same as threadbans become self-enforcing.

Also mind the mixed messaging, telling people just to ignore while another moderator is asking for reports and more details and who it might be don't work together.

Right now I see (I just ignore and report unless there's a witty/funny reply available) regular posters put themselves at risk of punishment when responding, especially if they get worked up about it.

I get the whole "we don't want to be hostile to new users on boards.ie" thing, but it's one thread that has history and if someone is signing up just to post in it, it's likely for a very singular reason that doesn't benefit the site (+ there's the whole soccer forum that's even more onerous to get access to yet is a very busy/active location). Similar is seen in the Biden/Trump threads with the banned list being a who's/who of sitebanned/abandoned single issue user accounts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120291979#Comment_120291979

By ignore I mean do not engage with them, reporting doesn’t give them any attention.

I’m specifically talking about people quoting posters calling them a troll or pointing out they’re threadbanned.

Hodors Appletart

It's hilarious, ever since this website was created people like mods, cmods, admins, "community managers" and owners have trotted out the line "just ignore the trolls".

It didn't happen in the year 2000 and it's not going to happen in 2023 - the fact that these people in these positions of power constantly trot out this line says more about their total lack of understanding of how social media works (yes, this website is social media).

The reason trolls are so effective is because people will never, ever ignore them in enough numbers as to render their activities unsuccessful.

Telling people, for over 20 years, to "just ignore them" is lazy moderation in my opinion. It's literally never going to happen, and trying to explain it to people as if it's some really simple plan is downright insulting to everyone who just wants to interact normally. There will always be someone who reaches breaking point with trolls, it won't always be the same person and it won't always be the same trigger point - but it is guaranteed to happen.

What boards.ie does is then tell off the people who are reacting to trolls, and allow the trolls to continue - it is and has been the case especially that so-called "low-level" trolls have been getting away with it for years here, nobody has ever taken the bull by the horns and told these trolls to go away.

Content above all.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058285310/trolling-on-the-russia-thread-current-affairs

It would be the sensible thing to do, similar to the need to have a certain no of posts before uploading images etc.

Boards.ie: Mike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296646#Comment_120296646

If you encounter a troll, or trolling behaviour. Do Not Engage with it or them. Not engaging is not the same thing as ignoring them. Engaging with these people is exactly what they are hoping for. It's like continuously feeding a fire and expecting it to go out and cool down. Take away the fuel and the fire dies. It's really as simple as that.

Don't engage. Report the post. Leave it there. Let the moderators deal with it then.

Can you also please drop this same old rhetoric that you are running with. "people in these positions of power", ""lazy moderation" and "content above all". It would seem that doing something about an issue is wrong and not doing something is also wrong. It's hard to win in that type of scenario isn't it?. The people who volunteer in those positions give there time willingly and carry out their role in the best way they can with the information that they have available at the time. Without all of them giving there time Boards.ie would be dead and gone. Thankfully this is a massive site and a very popular one with a lot of active community members and engaging users. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Unfortunately it's easier for some to focus on the negatives. Please refrain from using this mod bashing and site bashing language that you are posting with. If you have an issue with something approach the appropriate person by PM or make a report.

Hodors Appletart

The problem, Mike, is that it's not "as simple as that" - what makes you think that you and your current team can solve something so simple that no previous team of admins/mods has been able to solve?

Do you think repeating the same advice or instruction as people were doing in the year 2000 is somehow going to magically change behaviour this time? If nothing else, that seems completely arrogant.

Do you think people that the owners/admins etc that have come before you have not also given that same "just ignore them it's really easy and simple if you just do it", do you think that worked in the past? Do you think it will work today? What makes you different?

I'm genuine in that question by the way - this approach had been proven, time and again, not to work - the fact that you keep doing the same thing, with the same results, means a different approach is required.

Telling people to "simply" ignore and not engage with trolls didn't work a quarter of a century ago, isn't working today, and won't work in the future.

How can I think that there aren't some other motives at play here, when there is an outright refusal to even entertain or admit that there are major flaws with, essentially, victim blaming the normal users (don't engage with them what do you think will happen) while outright allowing trolls to go about their business.

It's hugely ironic telling me to drop "old lines of rhetoric" when it's ok for you to continue to use the same old tactics that have never worked before. Double standards.

Boards.ie: Mike

Again. You have misunderstood what I posted. I did not say that people should "ignore them". Sure, that didn't work historically and that's exactly what we don't want to see. What I said was that people should not "engage" with them. Report the post. Let the moderators deal with it. That's the process. That's the solution for now.

These forums are busy and thankfully we have a large and active team of mods and admins to take care of reported posts as efficiently as possible. We cannot stop people from re-registering here. These trolls often re-reg from banned accounts. That is of course against the terms of use. If there is any inkling that it is a re-reg then they will be removed from the site immediately. We can take other actions to discourage this behaviour.

I'm not claiming that I can solve every problem here. All I can do is try to facilitate a path towards a solution. I'm open to any and all suggestions to come to a resolution on this. I will put it to the Admins to make a decision on it together. Currently this site , apart from a few areas where access must be requested, is open to, accepting and encouraging any and all new engagement and conversation as long as it has a point and is generally positive or helpful. Trolls have no place here.

So again until a better solution comes along that works for the majority. Do Not Engage, Report the post and let the moderators take care of it. This will discourage trolls and dampen the flames of their disruptive agenda.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296646#Comment_120296646

No it’s not lazy moderation it’s flipping common sense. Trolls register because they get attention.

If you’re sitting on a thread quoting them with nothing else but “re reg” and “troll” over and over they will not stop.

Hodors Appletart

Benjamin Tangy Goose-step, with respect, why do you think you telling people this is going to have a different outcome to when countless other mods, cmods, admins, owners and whoever else over the years has issued the same advice and calling it "common sense".

Do you think you can change decades of behaviour on social media?

Mr. CooL ICE

Who says there will be a different outcome?

Do you have an alternative solution?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297736#Comment_120297736

Do you think constantly opening or being involved in threads bad mouthing the mods, site and threads you personally don’t like will change anything?

I mean your threatening to leave the coffee & tea forum unless the bowel movement thread was closed didn’t go your way and moaning about how we do F all hasn’t changed the fact we actually do a lot more than you think but alas.

For someone who loves to complain the mods etc are just doing the “same old stuff” you sure do a lot of the same old stuff yourself with no different result.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297736#Comment_120297736

It is still the best advice. Unless you can think of better advice?

astrofool

It does feel a bit like this:

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303561#Comment_120303561

So what should boards.ie do?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303706#Comment_120303706

...some of the suggestions already made?...

Gatling

Just look a the first page the banned list is nearly at 60 accounts ,

Beasty has done a great job keeping on top of things , but it's not just trolling there's a few sly digs getting in by not so recently registered posters too ,

Not seen much of the new CA mods though

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303729#Comment_120303729

Which ones in particular? Some of them are not possible with Vanilla and others are unworkable.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303750#Comment_120303750

See my comments on the previous page among others, none of that needs vanilla changes and becomes self enforcing on thread similar to threadbans.

But, are you really looking for ideas or just here to parrot how crap vanilla is on the tooling side? Because everyone knows that, it doesn't need repeating, but there does seem to be an us vs them dynamic creeping in with little on thread notices and mods sticking to "the way things were" and blaming users for responding to trolls which is an absolutely ridiculous attitude to have, falling into the "let them eat cake" category of responses.

Hodors Appletart

People respond to trolls, people engage with trolls, people don't ignore trolls.

No matter the semantic gymnastics employed, telling people to ignore, not engage with or whatever else is simply never going to happen. It won't happen on Boards, it won't happen on twitter, facebook, reddit or anywhere else.

It is a demonstrably failed tactic, in twenty five years of internet interactions, all over the world, the only social media where trolls are not really present are those with very strict criteria for posting (which there does not seem to be any appetite for here) or verym, very niche topics with low userbase (again, boards does not currently fall under this category either).

It's all very well pointing out a banlist of 60+ accounts and saying well done, but the thread and wider website is still being trolled on the regular - and there seems to be a tacit acceptance that the posting criteria are not going to be tightened up, so therefore you need to put up with the trolls, and the people who at some stage or other going to call them out.

It is, and always has been, nonsensical to take punitive action against non-troll users for calling out trolls.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289181#Comment_120289181

"However if you think it's a re-re tell us who you think it's a re-reg of. If you cannot pinpoint their prior accounts don't just say "re-reg". Anyone is entitled to re-reg, unless their account is banned"

What if a poster reckons that a new poster is a re-reg of any one of a number of people that endlessly re-register on the site, but cannot pinpoint which one?

I would have thought that flagging a poster as potential re-reg and letting the mods/cmods/admin use their extra resources to have a closer look would be welcome...but perhaps not.

weisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296830#Comment_120296830

I think the change to vanilla screwed over more volunteers than any re reg is capable of

Ficheall

The postcount minimum won't keep the posters in that thread happy. I've significantly more than 50 posts and was accused of being a troll and Putin bot for having the temerity to suggest that Russia's arse wasn't being so profoundly whooped as people on the thread were suggesting. Anti-Russian but pessimistic posters need to be banned, hung, drawn and quartered too.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120291230#Comment_120291230

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120291979#Comment_120291979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303977#Comment_120303977

I have quoted your two suggestions. One is a minimum post count that vanilla doesn't support and the other is suggesting that users don't respond to trolls. exactly the suggestion by mods that you are complaining about. you must be on the wind up.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304413#Comment_120304413

Bloody hell, why would you turn this into an argument here.

But anyway, this doesn't need tools from Vanilla:

It would (likely) help if the mods could add a comment when they get banned (the thread moves so fast that it can get missed if a ban/siteban has occurred) and say if it was a confirmed re-reg or not (so people know if they were correct in reporting a re-reg).

This doesn't need tools from Vanilla:

Actually, you can just add a "Must have 50 posts" or something similar in the OP (and maybe title) for that thread, threadbans aren't code enforced

Moderators disagreeing with each other doesn't need tools from Vanilla (and there seems to be a moderator stubbornness here to admit the mixed messaging which doesn't bode well):

Also mind the mixed messaging, telling people just to ignore while another moderator is asking for reports and more details and who it might be don't work together.

This doesn't need tools from Vanilla:

regular posters put themselves at risk of punishment when responding

And that's just my suggestions.

I'd suggest PM if you want to continue a back and forth because I can get really condescending if I need to.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304448#Comment_120304448

Good for you. well done.

Mr. CooL ICE

Actually, you can just add a "Must have 50 posts" or something similar in the OP (and maybe title) for that thread, threadbans aren't code enforced

If a troll is going to ignore a siteban, they're not going to abide by a message in the OP

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304475#Comment_120304475

exactly. all it does is create more admin work both in terms of removing posts and the helpdesk complaints it will inevitably create from legitimate users annoyed that their posts were deleted

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304475#Comment_120304475

No, but other users will know not to respond due to the 50 post criteria rather than engaging, the same way threadbans already work, it becomes self-policing and removes the ability for the troll to argue otherwise or engage with other users as their lifetime on the thread will be very limited.

Mods are already having to spend time removing posts because people will engage with the troll, this should limit the number of posts to be deleted and cuts off oxygen to the troll as they are being cut off due to a technicality rather than the content of their posts (which is what they really want).

As others have said, punishing regular users for responding to trolls, uncivil or not, is absurd and it's crazy it's gone on this long given that some users re-reg on the sole basis to target other posters and get them banned as well.

ohnonotgmail

"The way threadbans already work". You mean routinely ignored? Just dont engage with trolls full stop. They are pretty easy to spot most of the time.

weisses

Just dont engage with them and report them ... It takes away the the only incentive they want to keep posting