TD's.

Homelander

It's also using completely false equivalence. Anecdotal evidence that one TD did some part-time work while a TD ≠ all TD's are perfectly capable of working part time jobs and just doing the TD gig voluntarily in their spare time in the evenings.

You might think that'd make for wonderful Government and efficiency, though I doubt most people would agree that frankly you've given zero argument as to why that would be the case other than vague soundbites with no basis like "It'd open it up to more people".

What you're advocating is basically politics of yesteryear when the wealthy upper-class ran Governments, because that's the realistic truth of what would happen with such a system.

Also the argument that people go into politics for the money is utterly ludicrious. Getting into politics isn't something you decide on a Monday and stroll into office on a Tuesday. It's a long ladder that takes time for the vast majority*, years of grassroots and community work, maybe a council seat, then a campaign for a Dail seat, which many of those who ultimately make it failing their first, second or third third time out.

Anyone who's successful in politics at national level has the smarts to make just as much if not more money in the private market, with far less workload and stress. They do it because they love politics.

*I say vast majority because an anecdote of how X TD got in on his father/mother's seat is not remotely representative of the vast majority of TDs and again it would be another totally false equivalence to suggest that's how politics works in the wider sense.

Sure you can argue "ah that was always an X party seat so they'll just pass it on" but the competition for said seat within said party is fierce and entails a ton of work to get the nomination. Even putting aside challenge to the seat from Y party, and their own slew of potential nominations fighting out to get the nod to contest it.

The workload can be as big as you want it to be. Hence why most TD's are extremely busy, all the time, because they take on tons of constituent work, which is crucial to what returns them. Mary in the local parish isn't generally voting for you because you introduced a great piece of national legislation.

Most councillors work full-time jobs and the councillor gig is part-time, though obviously it consumes a lot of their time. There are some full-time councillors and they tend to be the ones that have held onto seats the longest, simply because they get far more time to deal with issues locally on the most microscopic level.

Some TD's are just super-councillors and barely do anything input/output wise with regards national policy/issues whatsoever. Those sort of TDs also tend to be extremely popular in their local areas.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245810#Comment_120245810

Eh no, he can’t “practice full-time, part-time, whatever time suits him”. He can practice part time, as stated above, because he has to be a a TD full time.

The only different type of person that removing the salary attracts is a wealthy person who has little in common with the vast majority of those who they are supposed to be representing.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246301#Comment_120246301

I do appreciate your taking the time to outline the Irish political system, but you’ve nailed the central issue right here -

The workload can be as big as you want it to be. Hence why most TD's are extremely busy, all the time, because they take on tons of constituent work, which is crucial to what returns them. Mary in the local parish isn't generally voting for you because you introduced a great piece of national legislation.

…

Some TD's are just super-councillors and barely do anything input/output wise with regards national policy/issues whatsoever. Those sort of TDs also tend to be extremely popular in their local areas.

That is what raises the fundamental question as to whether a TD should be a paid role considering that they are already entitled to allowances and they are elected to national parliament to serve national interests, as opposed to doing the work of local councils. This is why I argue that the current system is fundamentally flawed in that it is not representative of all sections of Irish society, it represents only those sections of society which already have the resources, means, access and opportunities which other sections in Irish society can only dream of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246513#Comment_120246513

You took that a bit too literally, it was as much as to say I don’t actually care that he practices part-time, he is certainly not a TD full-time. He barely bothers to turn up for work! And as for the type of person that removing the salary attracts - we have that already, which is why the problem exists of an electorate which is disengaged from the political process and has no trust in the political process to actually achieve anything, leaving marginalised sections of society either dependent upon charity, or private enterprise, when it should be the role of the State, through legislation, put forward by TDs, to ensure that they have the means to enable them to achieve their full potential.

It matters in terms of housing, healthcare, employment, education, etc, and these are the kinds of national issues a parliament should be concerned with, not the kind of petty squabbling and oneupmanship that goes on over trivial matters that are inconsequential and don’t improve upon people’s lives in any meaningful way.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246671#Comment_120246671

It’s a bit rich to be moaning about people depending on charity with one hand while taking away salaries for TDs with your other hand.

dxhound2005

The electorate are very much engaged in the political process. They are the ones who appoint TD's to their jobs. If you went before them with that sort of nonsense, you would come bottom of the pile.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246734#Comment_120246734

It’s not taking a salary away from anyone, it’s taking the salary away from the ROLE. There’s clearly a distinction between the two ideas.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246743#Comment_120246743

The electorate do not appoint TDs? They vote on the candidates who put themselves forward for election, and the candidates who achieve the required amount of votes are elected. It’s the reason TDs introduced quotas -

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/03/16/the-2016-irish-election-demonstrated-how-gender-quotas-can-shift-the-balance-on-female-representation/

Amazing what can be achieved when TDs are forced to… I mean, choose to put the interests of the nation above their own interests. I’m not aware of any impediment in the Constitution that would prohibit TDs from voting to make the role a voluntary position where TDs could still maintain all allowances -

The basic salary of a backbench TD is €105,271. Cabinet ministers and junior ministers receive additional allowances. Office-holders (opposition party leaders, whips, the Ceann Comhairle, and Leas-Cheann Comhairle) also receive additional allowances.

After controversy regarding alleged abuses of the Oireachtasexpenses provisions, the system was simplified in 2009 and 2010 into two allowances:

• Travel and accommodation allowance – ranging from €9,000 for TDs less than 25 km from Leinster House to €34,065 for those more than 360 km away.
• Public Representation Allowance – for maintaining a constituency office; €20,350 for backbench TDs, less for ministers. All expenses must be vouched, except for a "petty cash" allowance of €100 per month. Until December 2012 TDs could choose between a €25,000 vouched allowance or €15,000 unvouched.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachta_Dála

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246671#Comment_120246671

Reading through your post, you seem to be the one that is disengaged from the process… you can make up what set of rules you like and complain when it does not work that way, nobody is going to take much notice…

As with most parliament of Westminster style democracies members of parliament are elected to represent the people of their constituency nothing more than that and means doing the local stuff. Sorry it is not to your liking but it is what it is.

And if you ever to an active role in an election, you’d know that generally speaking voters are well informed and know exactly what they are voting for. The excuse of blaming the voters always comes from those seeking to explain why the world does not agree with them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246813#Comment_120246813

I’m not sure what way you’re reading my post that you have inferred I’m making up rules and complaining when things don’t work the way rules I haven’t made up don’t work.

That aside, I don’t expect an apology for explaining the difference between idealism and reality, I’m quite familiar with the concept of expectations not matching reality.

And while I do know that voters are well informed and I don’t question the idea that voters are well informed, I’m more interested in those people who don’t vote, and when I’ve asked why they don’t exercise their right to vote (I refrain from the civic duty stuff, that’s a bit heavy in recreational conversation), the most common reason is that they just don’t see the point. It’s 10 years old now, but I don’t imagine things have actually changed all that much since, but just to give you some idea of what I mean -

The report went on to show that younger people were considerably less likely to vote in 2011 than those in older age groups.

It found that 92 per cent of people in the 55 to 64 age group voted in 2011 compared with 62 per cent of 18 to 24-year-olds and 73 per cent of people aged between 25 and 34.

The CSO said turnout remained lowest among young people, students and unemployed people while a lack of education was directly linked to a lack of interest in voting or politics.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/survey-reveals-non-voters-reasons-1.887282

dxhound2005

You're not familiar with the concept of brevity.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246861#Comment_120246861

I am, and I’m also familiar with the concept of a discussion, as opposed to a pissing contest to see who can come up with the snappiest put-down with the hope of it going viral à la Twitter, etc.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246806#Comment_120246806

It’s literally taking the salary away from the person in the role, which will dramatically restrict the number of people who can afford to take the role, without attracting a single additional person ( as any altruistically minded person could already decline the salary).

It is still as silly a proposal as it was when it came out originally.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245404#Comment_120245404

Correct, but there is not much difference between the eiro and the dollar now, they are almost on par, the euro has got so bad ( as we know from our cost of living crises, because so much of what we import eg from China is priced in dollars. We import more than just oil from the middle east ). Anyway, back to the point, crazy to think our 160 wasters of TDs are EACH paid more than the Prime Minister of Spain gets.

On another point, 60 or 100 TDs would be plenty for a tiny country like ours, which just has the same population as a medium size city worldwide.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247004#Comment_120247004

It’s not doing any such thing. That line of argument is akin to the reasons given at the time for why women should not be permitted to enter the workforce - because it would take jobs away from men. It’s spurious reasoning, at best. I do not expect that it would happen overnight, and knowing how unwilling TDs would be to move on such legislation, I don’t expect it would happen in our lifetimes tbh. But, that’s not to suggest it isn’t possible to introduce at all, and in theory ten years before the proposed change would come into effect would be plenty of advance notice which would have no impact on currently sitting TDs.

I’m also not suggesting that it should be done in isolation as though it wouldn’t be possible to commit to a programme to encourage more people from all sectors of Irish society to participate in politics, and to have their voices heard, and to see themselves represented in the national parliament.

If you’re of a mind to ensure the status quo, then it’s far easier on your part to find excuses to maintain the status quo, it’s the reason why the idea of maternity leave for TDs has never previously been considered for example, or quotas were only considered recently, and the initiative didn’t take any positions or salaries from men for whom politics is portrayed as a full-time all consuming way of life and all the rest of it. “Women aren’t interested in politics” was the explanation for the absence of women in politics, never mind that such a ridiculous notion ignored the history of women who were influential in Irish politics.

For the purposes of clarity - the above is not a perfect example, and there is still much more to be accomplished, but the idea doesn’t exist in isolation, and in much the same manner the idea of the role of a TD being a voluntary role doesn’t exist in isolation either, altruism is not a trait commonly observed among the type of person who sees the role in it’s current form as attractive.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247660#Comment_120247660

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41070074.html

You wrote -

On another point, 60 or 100 TDs would be plenty for a tiny country like ours

Looks like we are to get even more.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238277#Comment_120238277

SF TD John Brady lives in a social house in Bray. Politicians are not paid enormous salaries contrary to what some people seem to think, after tax paid etc it is decent but nothing extraordinary. However, I do think they can afford to house themselves and I don't like a TD on a 6 figure salary taking a much needed social house, paying feck all in rent.

Pawwed Rig

Do Sinn Fein not just take the average wage and contribute the rest to the party?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248070#Comment_120248070

Not anymore though they are expected to make a contribution to party funds.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30982340.html

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248132#Comment_120248132

The key word there being ‘expected’ 😁

Sinn Féin’s elected representatives have only been making a fraction of the donations to the party expected by its executive, despite leader Mary Lou McDonald insisting that each elected member donates €2,500 to the party from their salary each year

In fact, nine of the party’s TDs in the period from 2016 to 2018 made no donation whatsoever.

In that time, a maximum of €235,000 could have been received by the party should each of its 32 representatives (reduced to 30 following the resignations of Peadar Tóibín and Carol Nolan) have made their full contribution. However, just €125,860 was received in that time, 53.6% of the total figure.

The nine TDs — in question - John Brady, Pat Buckley, Sean Crowe, David Cullinane, Kathleen Funchion, Martin Kenny, Jonathan O’Brien, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, and Eoin Ó Broin — show no record of having donated to Sinn Féin in any of the years 2016 through 2018, according to records obtained via the Standards in Public Office Commission (Sipo).

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30982340.html

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247660#Comment_120247660

On that point, I don't think it is unreasonable to have 4 TD's to represent all of Sligo, all of Leitrim, part of Donegal and part of Roscommon. In the previous Dail it was part of Cavan instead of Roscommon. How many do you think would be the right number?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248238#Comment_120248238

As of 2015, Per million people, Spain had 13 seats in its national parliament.

Germany had 8

France had 14

Portugal had 22

Belgium had 13

Holland had 19

Italy had 16

UK had 23

Ireland - as of 2015 - had 49.

And the taxpayer pays for them of course. I rest my case.

Source: if you google "number of politicians per head of population" it will come up.

Pawwed Rig

There is 1 TD for every 20 - 30k people as laid out in the constitution

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248328#Comment_120248328

On the question of what is called the Sligo Leitrim constituency, what number would be optimum to represent those two counties plus parts of Donegal and parts of Roscommon?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248620#Comment_120248620

As of 2015, Per million people, Spain had 13 seats in its national parliament.

Germany had 8

France had 14

Portugal had 22

Belgium had 13

Holland had 19

Italy had 16

UK had 23

Ireland - as of 2015 - had 49.

Therefore, if Ireland was to have anything close to the European average above, 80 (in round figures) TDs in the 26 counties would not be unreasonable, about half of what is there now. You can divy them up between constituencies as you see fit. It might eliminate some of the TDs being mainly concerned about getting the pothole outside some constituents house fixed and such **** not tolerated in other countries.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246743#Comment_120246743

Feck sake all the serious decisions are taken by the Bilderberg group as you well know

dxhound2005

Ireland has the Dail and the Seanad, a total of 220 politicians. There are also 949 County Councillors. That is the sum total. Comparing us to Spain is a nonsense. As well as the national parliament, Spain has 17 other regional parliaments including one for the Madrid region with 132 members. The one that sits in Barcelona has 135 members.

Also a comparison with the UK which does not mention the devolved parliaments there is erroneous. As well as getting to send 59 MP's to Westminster, Scotland has its own parliament with 129 members. NI has an Assembly with 90 members, and they found it reasonable to have five members for each of 18 constituencies.

Germany has 16 parliaments with 1,885 members, apart from the parliament in Berlin.

Dslatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249166#Comment_120249166

But but we are the most swindled populace in the world!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247795#Comment_120247795

Social housing rentals are proportional to income. If any social housing tenant gets a good job, they pay substantial rent.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247716#Comment_120247716

It’s not ‘reasoning’ though. It is a literal fact, that you’re proposing to take the salary away from what is currently a salaried post. This will, by definition, dramatically reduce the number of people who can afford to become TDs, a role where it is not possible to hold down a full time job, and not desireable to be holding down a significant part time job.

Have you met many people who’ve said to you “I’m interested in becoming a TD but the €100k salary is putting me off”?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248328#Comment_120248328

You are not comparing like with like though and that makes a very big difference. In parliament of Westminster style democracies you elect local representatives who happen to be members of a party, some of the countries you mention use various forms of list systems where by you elect a party who appoints member of parliament based on the lists and this can result in certain regions having no representative in parliament. Given that the Irish people voted twice to retain the PR system I very much doubt that they would vote to go away from a representative parliament.

On top of this you have to look at what is within the remit of parliament. Ireland has a very centralised system where decisions have direct impact on the citizens where as most other countries have a more decentralised system where by local government has the biggest impact.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249245#Comment_120249245

Wicklow CC has a maximum of 200 per week. In Bray there is no maximum apparently. Can you say how the differential rent in calculated? What would someone on his income level have to pay in rent? I am guessing it is way below market rent.

Can anyone come to John Brady's aid and explain what rent he would be paying on a TD's salary in Bray?