TD's.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235807#Comment_120235807

M Lowry has a very successful business so his personal finances do not depend on the TD salary.

buried

Whatever we do, lets keep calling them all by their first names as if we are on some intimate relationship with these people. It's working out so well for us.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234569#Comment_120234569

I don’t think it would tbh, it would only remove the financial incentive. I don’t imagine it have any impact on whether or not anyone aiming to be elected was wealthy or poor. All TDs could still be entitled to claim for their allowances to cover their expenses. There are already several TDs who come from wealth and are wealthy in their own right, particularly those who enjoyed the benefit of a third level education. I think it could only lead to a more balanced representation of a cross section of Irish society seeing as there are many people who volunteer their time and talents regardless of their income, because they’re genuinely passionate about the kind of Irish society they wish to bring about, as opposed to being motivated by financial interests. It’s a bit of a kick in the teeth for Junior Ministers who can’t claim similar expenses to their TD colleagues -

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41069780.html

(admittedly a strange quirk 😁)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120236369#Comment_120236369

To put the salary in perspective, it makes TDs salaries among only 2% of the labour force. What makes it extraordinary is that the same could be said of anyone who may not even be earning a tenth of what TDs earn, who will put up with similar levels of shìte, a similar workload and so on, which makes the salary extraordinary in that context. I can’t imagine any legitimate justification as to why TDs salaries are as high as they are, even taking into consideration their workload and having to be in the public eye and so on. They’re not compensated for being in the public eye, they’re compensated on the basis of turning up to work at least 150 (no, it’s 120 days now) out of 365 days of the year, and some of them can’t even manage that much -

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/tds-can-net-full-whack-of-travel-expenses-even-if-they-miss-a-raft-of-actual-dail-sittings-41515135.html

dxhound2005

That's more than 50,000 workers on an "extraordinary" wage. What makes the rest of them so superior to TD's?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237753#Comment_120237753

It absolutely would - it would be entirely impossible to do it while holding down any actual day job; you would need to have significant personal wealth or business interests as you would have zero salary from the TD job.

You'd have the type of people who made up the UK Parliament in the Victorian era - land owners and businessmen, nobody else. Maybe a few retirees these days.

Its difficult to be a councillor with a conventional job - meeting times may suit some teachers but everyone else is taking days off work twice a month at least for starters. And councillors are paid 25k, so you do still need some other source of money.

elperello

Expecting TDs to live on the scrapings of their allowances and travel expenses is a non starter.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237836#Comment_120237836

Ahh sure I know it’s actually never going to happen, but the question was does anyone wonder what motivates TDs to do what they do. There’s nothing to wonder about, the role pays extraordinarily well, which attracts the type of person who wants to be paid extraordinarily well for doing nothing.

The idea that it would only become a hobby for the already wealthy belies the idea that it is already a hobby limited to those people who are already wealthy in their own right. By removing the financial incentive, it opens up opportunities to a much broader cross section of Irish society to have the opportunity to represent the interests of the nation which they wish to see reflected in Irish society.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237945#Comment_120237945

There's many TDs, particularly those from left wing parties, who were certainly not 'wealthy in their own right' when entering the Dail.

dxhound2005

It's aiming to be one of only 160 with a job where they have to depend on their fellow citizens to approve them. That must bring great satisfaction, knowing that they fought off everyone else trying to get those jobs.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238035#Comment_120238035

You can see this in action at the counts when the hero is elected and raised shoulder high to the adulation of supporters.

Of course reality arrives with the next dawn and the campaign for re-election begins.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238015#Comment_120238015

How are you quantifying wealthy Andrew? I mean, that’s something I DO actually often wonder about - what Tony Gregory if he were alive today might have made of it all. He’s about the only left leaning politician I can honestly admit that I truly admire for his tenacity, a rare quality in politicians across the political spectrum in modern times who confuse tenacity for having a neck like a jockeys bollocks. His integrity would certainly stand in stark contrast to Leo’s brazenness in coming out with this absolute clanger recently, totally absent of any shred of humility or humanity given the context of the report and his response to it -

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/taoiseach-says-some-billionaires-are-all-fur-coat-and-no-knickers-1420516.html

I don’t know why it didn’t get more traction in the media, because to me it was the equivalent of “You should try it some time” Flynn. That’s why I think removing the financial incentive would somewhat level the playing field as it were, that it would give people whose voices aren’t ordinarily heard in the Dáil a public voice. If they’re lefties well, (and most of the people I encounter in volunteering roles are), I can live with that, because it’s more representative of the Irish nation, which serves the greater good, or the common good if you will, of Irish society.

mikemac2

Paschal Donohue was a director at Procter & Gamble

Whatever motivates him it was not the money. He took a massive paycut to return from the UK to attempt to become a DCC councillor

It worked out sure but it can also be looked as pretty reckless and him with a young family and set for life in London. Good for him I guess

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238221#Comment_120238221

Tony Gregory got into bed with Charles Haughey. Two gentlemen with loads of integrity.

Geuze

When 105k is described as "extraordinary", bear in mind one TD lives in social housing, and another is homeless!

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/former-sinn-fein-td-violet-anne-wynne-and-her-six-children-currently-homeless-41728970.html

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238256#Comment_120238256

If it was self-serving on Gregory’s part, I’d have agreed with you, but it wasn’t, he was still thinking of how best to serve his community, and yes, sometimes it did come at the cost of massaging the egos of some wholly undesirable types -

He eventually concluded a formal deal with Mr Haughey. This was signed by both of them, and independently witnessed. The actual value of the deal could have been worth more than £100m on inner city projects, depending on how long it ran, but the Government only survived for seven months.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-20081121.html

dxhound2005

The Healy Rae of his day. For South Kerry, substitute Inner City Dublin.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238277#Comment_120238277

A €105k salary for the role of a TD IS extraordinary, regardless of whether they are homeless or not. The reason she appears to be homeless is because she has been unable to find suitable accommodation for herself and her family. There are thousands of people, hundreds of families in the same position of being unable to find suitable accommodation. For her to even attempt the comparison is in itself extraordinary, it’s the epitome of the neck like a jockeys bollocks I was referring to earlier! 😳

Geuze

Are you suggesting that 105k is too high?

If so, I disagree.

My colleagues earn typically 90k, some are on 100k, but few of them could be a TD. They are good at their own jobs, but don't have the "soft" skills needed to be a TD.

Geuze

To attract good, talented people, we would need to pay at least double mean earnings, which we do.

So 105k seems fine to me.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238388#Comment_120238388

For me no TD in Ireland is worth paying €105k, some are worth 70 or 80k. Soft skills are not as valuable as qualifications and experience, I know people earning €40k a year that have brilliant soft skills.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234569#Comment_120234569

That's it in a nutshell

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235854#Comment_120235854

Lowry is a slimy fucker, I've had the misfortune of answering the door to him when my father in law was being waked at my Wife's homeplace a few years back and it made my skin crawl but make no mistake, he works damn hard to make sure he gets that vote. Personally, I don't think most of the hard work he does should be the kind of thing that a TD ought to be doing, but he clearly understands his constituents, I would never vote for him, but his constituents do in their droves.

I think a TD's job should be to ensure that no constituent should even need to visit a TD's clinic to gain access to a basic service but unfortunately there's no votes in that.

Someone said to me once that every TD understands what needs to be done, they just don't know how to get re-elected afterwards.

Beechwoodspark

They are vastly overpaid for what they do - mainly Arsing around the place gladhanding and bullsh1tting anyone who will listen to them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238388#Comment_120238388

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238395#Comment_120238395

Just based upon the last two examples alone of what is considered good, talented people with the necessary soft skills, and even if I were to include the Healy Rae dynasty in that, I’d have to wonder about how you quantify either good, or talented, let alone the idea that they are in possession of anything approaching soft skills, by which I take it you mean the ability to empathise with people across the socioeconomic spectrum. Clearly, soft skills are not required to be a TD. An interest in becoming one however, is an absolute must, and it’s just a fact that no matter how high the pay were, it still wouldn’t be an attractive career choice for anyone who isn’t motivated by financial gain.

Simply agreeing to a salary of €100k doesn’t mean the salary will actually attract good talented people, the two ideas are completely separate. What it’s absolutely guaranteed to attract however, are people motivated by financial gain. Take away that incentive, and you can still attract good, talented people who want to invest their time and talent in your ideas, because they genuinely care about making things better, and they recognise that they’re in a better position to do that through cooperation.

The fractured relationships between parties on the left of the political spectrum is only a demonstration that they haven’t cottoned onto that idea yet, which is a good thing for those people who wish to maintain the status quo from which they are it’s primary beneficiaries. No soft skills required, as demonstrated recently again by Boris in the UK who upon hearing that a pensioner had to ride around on the bus all day to stay warm, he came out with “I introduced the bus pass”, or words to that effect, as if that’s something to be more proud of than being utterly embarrassed by the circumstances in which a pensioner found themselves -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-bus-pass-pensioners-warm-b2070395.html?amp

I can think of better ways to use €100k really. I’ve no doubt we all could, if the fear is that politics would become the preserve of wealthy people who would be so detached from reality that they would regard politics as a mere hobby! Achievement unlocked, tbh.

Homelander

The suggestion that TD's should only get expenses and allowances is absolutely bonkers. That would basically mean the job would be reserved almost exclusively for those who are already wealthy.

It wouldn't be remotely possible to work as a TD and hold down a full-time job. Councillors already struggle with that.

You can argue that a TD is useless or brilliant, but regardless, they're basically always working, the idea that they have all this free time and are "doing nothing" is completely untrue. Their job is a nightmare, that most people would have no interest in for good reason, regardless of the money involved.

You're basically working 24/7, 365 on local issues as well as the national ones, as well as constantly in the public eye and under scrutiny, and everything else that comes with it. Some of them thrive on it, it's a way of life more so than a job, but it's absolutely anything but easy work.

The real problem in Ireland is that Independent TD's are basically super-councillors a lot of the time. Hence the popularity of the likes of the Healy-Raes.

Geuze

A newly-qualified accountant aged 26 in Dublin earns 50-55k.

A newly-qualified solicitor aged 26 in Dublin earns up to 70k.

The idea that a TD should get 70k is crazy.

It must be a well paid job for the long hours.

The Dail sits until 10pm, for example.

If a TD isn't any good, they will lose their seat, fair enough.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237753#Comment_120237753

they’re compensated on the basis of turning up to work at least 150 (no, it’s 120 days now) out of 365 days of the year, and some of them can’t even manage that much.

If you are so niave as to think that days in the Dail is all TDs work then there is no use anyone debating with you here on this thread.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238558#Comment_120238558

Why the false dichotomy though? As though it’s only possible to attract and retain good, talented people provided they’re paid enough? It ignores the reality that highly motivated and talented people don’t just sit on one board with a high salary, they sit on many more boards with none, because they’re motivated to want to share their skills, experience and knowledge with others.

There’s absolutely no reason we couldn’t have the same standards of politicians, or TDs, but we don’t have it because many more are simply attracted by the financial incentives of being a TD. It doesn’t mean they’re any more or less competent than anyone else, the salary exists for what it is, there are no metrics by which their performance can actually be measured in tangible terms, it’s simply a popularity contest in the constituencies in which they run where they hope to be elected. It’s not a competition where they have to beat 160 other people, more often they only have to beat maybe ten, sometimes two or more people who belong to their own parties.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238570#Comment_120238570

What was wrong with stating that TDs are compensated on the basis of turning up to work at least 120 days out of the year, and some of them can’t even manage that much? There’s nothing naive in that. I would be naive however if I thought they were working 24/7/365, or that they deserve to be compensated on the basis of the amount of abuse they can take from the public and whatever other ideas there are to justify a salary of €100k. In it’s most basic terms it’s a very simple question - would your voting preference be for someone who does the same amount of work and is only entitled to their expenses, or someone who does the same amount of work and is entitled to a €100k salary and expenses on top of that?

I know which one I would think is better value.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120236418#Comment_120236418

And you made a broad general statement about all nurses not having one particular trait which is obviously nonsense.

I suggested nurses work as TDs as a nonsense response to your nonsense generalisation.