Do smart meters cost you more

yourdeadwright

Hey guys

Recently got a letter from the ESB that they would be around to upgrade the meter to a smart meter,

But since i have heard a loteof people say it will make the bill go up .

OIs there nay truth to that ?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058278873/do-smart-meters-cost-you-more

Yep, there was a recent article in the Indo saying pretty much that...

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/not-so-smart-meters-how-some-new-smart-plans-have-customers-paying-more-not-less-for-energy-bills-42013780.html

My smart meter was installed last year and I looked at the plans, but came to the same conclusion - it would only cost me more as I WFH and don't really have a choice (or inclination) to be monitoring when I should put a wash on etc.

Thankfully you do NOT have to switch plans even after they put the meter in. Eamon Ryan was waffling about that last year too, but did mention there should be an opt-out included. Long story short, the meter is no issue.. just make sure they don't switch you to a different plan unless you're happy to.

kabakuyu

Also remember that if you are currently on a day/night tariff that a smart meter cannot support this tariff and you would have to go to a 24 hour tariff or a smart plan at considerably more cost.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086254#Comment_120086254

Sound so they can put it in but as long as you don't opt for a new plan everything stays the same ,

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086313#Comment_120086313

Yep. I haven't heard from them since the inital email and because I would get no value out of the "smart features" (and am certainly not paying more than I already do!) I am quite happy to stay as is.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086288#Comment_120086288

Any link to this? I thought the smart meter could facilitate a day/ night plan as long as you stayed with your day/ night plan.

Gooser14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086254#Comment_120086254

There is an opt out available. You have to call ESB Networks to request an opt out. You will need to provide them with your MPRN.

Kurooi

I have a smart meter but I'm not on a smart plan. Just signed on a regular price per unit regardless of time or day.

Seeing a few articles out on IT and the like about how very few people sign on to smart plans I gave them a gander and quickly realised why. I believe they are more expensive on average, for an average person. Electric Ireland for reference, I pay the 39.59c on the left. Because I generally sleep 11pm to 8am exactly and consume no electricity. Lights are off. Heating is gas.

I'd only consider these plans if I worked odd hours maybe evenings or night so that I could do any chores during that 11pm to 8am window. Laundry, dryer, dish washer, hoover. That could be a neat way to save money. But I don't mind having the meter, it's actually handy because I'm not bugged for readings anymore and switching is a bit cleaner.

cbreeze

I have had the smart meter installed and I am disappointed to notice that the kilowatts clock up in whole numbers rather than tenths of a kwh like in the older one.

I am not minded to change from my standard 24h plan to a time of use plan, because the peak time electricity price can be increased on a whim. I get these chatty emails and texts telling me that if I open the fridge and stare into it takes 10 minutes per minute open to cool it back down, and, wait for it, 'this can waste over 100kWh a year, this is equivalent to vacuuming for 3 whole days!'. I think they will have to try harder and be a bit more specific.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086820#Comment_120086820

The other problem with that example is that your neighbours might not be thrilled if you were running hoovers and washing machines at 3am - especially given the generally very poor sound insulation between houses/apartments in many cases.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086988#Comment_120086988

Typical bot response. You will be swamped with mundane reasonings such as this. How many complaints of such noise have you or anyone experienced in real life? Not as much as phantom accounts will lead you to believe.

There is a reason only 4% of meters are on a smart plan. They are more expensive and restrictive. Hard evidence suggests so.

Fear not...and think about it

https://www.thejournal.ie/ozone-layer-hole-5964773-Jan2023/

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086325#Comment_120086325

Smart meter cannot support D/N tariff that replicates current D/N plans that 270k consumers ae currently using,(anybody on D/N meters that are offered smart meters at the moment should refuse them IMO) there have been numerous threads and news articles but have a look this latest thread for more info.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058278418/meter-tariff-compatibility#latest

SchrodingersCat

You don’t have to get it installed if you don’t want to. I know that some folks have refused to get the smart meters installed by giving an excuse. For example, you dont want George Soros interferring with your brainwaves. The ESBN dont care. They will leave you alone if you dont want one. However, you could just upgrade and stick to your old electricity plan. But then whats the point I guess.

The smart meter plans give you cheaper units during off-peak use. Unfortunately, most people don't bother changing their electricity use habits, so they end up getting more expensive bills. If you are proactive about when you use your electricity to take advantage of the cheaper times, you can save money.

morrisja

I have had a smart meter for over a year and have recently signed up to a smart meter pricing plan.

My recommendation would be to get the smart meter (unless you have a real objection to doing so) and then stay on a flat rate tariff for a year.

This will allow you to see how much electricity you use during day/night/peak times and allow you to evaluate whether a flat rate or smart pricing plan is cheaper.

For a lot of average users a flat rate tariff may still be best. We have electric heating (heat pump) and an electric car so our electricity use pattern is quite different and somewhat flexible (e.g. night charging of car).

Calculating the best value takes some work and I suspect most people are not up for the calculations involved (though I'm surprised price comparison/switching websites haven't brought out a tool for this).

Unfortunately you can't easily tell your usage by time until you have a smart meter installed so its a bit chicken and egg, hence the suggestion to get the smart meter but stick to flat tariff until you have a year of data.

The assumption here is of course that suppliers don't alter the ratio of prices in the different time periods or in some way target smart meter plans to extract more value. This may be proven to be a naive assumption, however given overall price flexibility and competition in the electricity supply market I suspect there's no need to gouge smart meter plans more than flat rate plans.

From my calculations in Dec 2022 some of the smart meter plans of a few major suppliers appear to be cheaper than flat rate plans (checked for 2 different households, one of which was more like an average user than my household). It is of course specific to each household and whether you have the capacity to flex your usage at all.

In summary, some smart meter plans may save you a bit on your bill but you have to do some work to figure it out!

darthwilson

We got our smart meter installed last year and it's pretty disappointing. The smart meter plans work out more expensive unless you do have the likes of a heat pump and electric car. Even the rep at Energia confirmed this to me.

The more disappointing thing is that you cannot monitor your realtime energy usage which I thought was the main selling point of smart meters. A few friends in the UK have smart meters and they can see in real time how much energy things are using. From what I can tell, you can go to a smart meter plan from electric Ireland and they will do the energy monitoring but I don't think it's in real-time. It's every 30 mins or something which again, is pretty useless.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094179#Comment_120094179

If you have a heat pump and EV you are likely being rode, price wise, unless you are on a day night meter and a day night tariff, and not a smart or 24hr one.

The biggest problem is that unless you’ve a very unusually flexible lifestyle it’s not possible really to shift stuff off anymore than many of us already do with night and day rate.

I do all my dishwashing, washing and drying when the rates cut over to half price.

I have a very good set of appliances and use monitored smoke alarms so I’m not that worried about fire risks. I’m certainly not going to sleep though any issue.

The dryer is also a heat pump model so there’s no real extreme hot air or elements involved, so the risk is low and modern dishwashers use enclosed elements that the water is pumped though. Older ones used to use open elements at the bottom, which could cause a fire if something fell onto them.

I’ve a smoke alarm over the dishwasher and another one in the utility room and also one next to the boiler and fuse box area. They just seemed like logical places to put one.

Also found switching all my lighting to LED over the last few years and things like swapping out the hob for induction and a newer oven has really sliced the bills down a lot.

If I’m working from home there are steady power needs all day. If I’m not working from home there is a schedule when I have to eat and so on. So I can’t really just not cook at peak times.

If you had an electric car maybe it would make sense if it could link up and connect at the cheapest possible tariff over night.

Also I think if you’re using electric water heating, it possibly makes more sense to have a very very insulated tank and shift the heating to the cheapest time. Otherwise you’re showering with an electric shower at full rate or peak rate. So that isn’t something every Irish household can do without replacing the immersion. The old ones are just ludicrously inefficient and lose most of the heat. The continental style ones are like a giant thermos flask. You can heat them off peak and they will retain almost all of that heat. Irish immersions are just a badly insulated copper cylinder, some aren’t even insulated at all. It’s as inefficient as trying to store hot water in a pot on the cooker. It’ll rapidly lose all the heat.

We need a lot more than just smart meters though to actually make use of those complicated tariffs.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094179#Comment_120094179

😂 You dont work for esb by any chance,the best deals out there at the moment is an old fashioned D/N rate on an old D/N meter but you appear to have overlooked that,270k consumers currently on old D/N systems.

Sleeper12

Change the thread title perhaps?

Smart meters don't cost more in answer to the question on the thread title.

Smart tariffs may cost more but it depends totally on when you use the most of your electricity

smuggler.ie

I hope you agree that best estimate that is based on long term observation, more data - more accurate it might be. Good thing is that D/N digital meter does show D usage / N usage and combined total (aka 24h)

How about estimate over 11years? I know, prices were changing over years etc, etc., but main point is kWh usage during day/night and how it fits with smart tariffs. Anyway, here it come....

Based on my digital meter readings today since it was installed( ESB seal dated Oct2011).

Based on kWh* + St charge prices (Inc. VAT) advertised on SSE as of today, 11Jan2023, for Standard plan(rural), no discounts taken in to consideration, PSO = 0 as per SSE

*Assumption that SPeak time usage is same pace as the rest of SDay time, 86.67/13.33 % of Dt kWh based on SDt/SPt duration. This defo wont be correct as we would be at work/school during 08:00-16:00 , but cannot determine kWh % ratio to be reasonably accurate, so be it. My guess is 70/30 at least, even 60/40(el cooker+oven, diner time @18:00), see what happens with these % in addition.

Note: loss is over 11year meter data at current prices on SSE

Note2: this calculation only apply to me, yours could well be different

Wonder if anyone would have their Dt/Nt ratio and share, just to see how bad i am in this regard

Let me know if you see inconsistency/mistakes in my calculation.

So for me:

Conclusion1 - smart tariffs sucks compare to D/N for me and if take * note into account, it is worse than 24h tariff. (match to 24H would be SDt/SPt @ 80/20 ratio)

Conclusion2 - saving 900 over 11year(D/N vs 24h) is not that hugely significant(~€7 p/m at current prices), unless usage would significantly move toward Nt, which is unlikely. Also, St charge reduces benefit of D/N good bit. Same could be said about loss on smart plan. It is what it is, not to say €7 per month is worthless.

Conclusion3 - Smart meters do not effect your bill directly - its purpose to count kWh, only if you are lured/forced into smart plan, smart tariffs do(would for me). All personal "like/dislike" data pumped out from you etc. - If there would not be personal data involved(which apparently is), there would not be GDPR/consent issue, but this is separate story i guess.

What is the point to have smart readings every 30 min or so, if you are charged @ 13, 9, 2 hour intervals? I mean for consumer. Oh i know - i could get that SDt/SPt @ % ratio. Then what? Another promise like "on diet from 1st of Jan" or "quit smoke" that never lasted more than a week.

If you conscious about saving you are already doing it where you can. If you are not - SM does not do that for you, you need to learn tariffs and clock, then change your habits. Or you just don't care and pay.

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095744#Comment_120095744

Maybe they will start measuring kva usage. A nice little stealth increase that might be, compared to non smart meters.

walterking

I have a smart meter and switched to a smart plan this year and its the best thing I did.

4 bed rural house and December bill was €153, November was €137. Effectively Nov/Dec was about €90 after gov credit and we are not in an A rated new build. Rating is D, but heating is oil. (includes hot water)

Washing machine and dishwasher are the biggest users. Both on on the express setting. Both run after 11pm.

Tumble dryer is put on at 6am or put on a timer to run at night.

The analytics shows exact cost per 30min time of use, so we can see what it costs us at night versus daytime. A small amount of effort can literally save you hundreds of euro

I assume the reason for the 30 min cycle is that they'll ultimately start offering plans that are flexible and vary depending on what the source on the grid is.

For example, it would make ecological sense if they could drop the rates when the grid is mostly running on wind and higher them when it's mostly running on gas/coal.

So if you could be notified of the current energy mix, you could adjust your usage accordingly.

At the moment it's just like day/night metering with an extra peak band. That really isn't smart metering, it's just multi-tarrif timed metering.

A fully smart grid would be able to do things like offer very cheap rates when it has abundance of supply, which might vary a bit, and could use that to dump into say stored hot water or EV charging etc with simple automation.

smuggler.ie

Remind me , when have you seen rates drop... ☺️

Standard digital meter, capable to do 5 tariffs + "negative" that i guess for feeding energy back to the grid. Smart enough for metering purpose, but without radio beacon.

How many tariffs can new one do i wonder?

If it reads every 30 minutes. The system can do 48 tariffs per day and could vary them day to day. It’s basically unlimited.

smuggler.ie

So there should be no problem (from meter perspective) to stay on any tariff (24, D/N ) with SM. In some other thread i read that there apparently is, potentialy indicating that util companies just flat decline to do so.

CathalDublin

You don’t need an excuse to opt out, when KN networks send you the letter with the install date, just call them and opt out.

A comment/excuse is optional

We have a day/night rate digital meter at the moment. I assume we can just stay on that tarif ?

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104524#Comment_120104524

Little that i know, but update us when you get there...

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104443#Comment_120104443

You cannot stay on a day night tariff if you are moved to a smart meter. There is currently no crossover between MCC02 and RM106 smart meters. The smart meters only cover MCC01, MCC12 and MCC16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104524#Comment_120104524

Nope. Keep the digital meter.

There's a new smart meter configuration coming out under RM107 that will cover MCC02, MCC12 and MCC16 (but not MCC01) which you will be able to get a smart meter and keep day night tariff. Not possible yet.

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116277#Comment_120116277

Thank for update

"Coming out"?, doesn't this sound like "there is your car, wheels coming soon" 😊

Did ESB (or whomever responsible for this "project") overlook this version of events, didn't care or they thought if they apply "smart" to the name it just pass - not a "back yard lab test" after all

ELM327

They basically wanted to make a splash I'd say, and the biggest group of users in the domestic space are on MCC01 - standard 24hr rates - and the smart meters on RM106 can cover that MCC as well as MCC12 and MCC16.

They must have forgotten or not known simply that MCC02 had two main usage registers and a smart meter with only one simply wouldnt cut it. So they have to get more in under a different configuration. These will be known as RM107. Both RM106 (all smart meters currently installed) and RM107 (the smart meter than can do MCC02) are not interchangeable - the former cannot do MCC02 and the latter cannot do MCC01, but, in time, these MCCs will be phased out in all likelihood and replaced with MCC12, MCC16 and others

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118930#Comment_120118930

Is "Smart" is realy smart enough 😊

Does that in turn mean either ALL other tariffs "have to go" or there still will be inequality among what consumer can opt for - 24H or smart vs D/N or smart. Would it require meter replacement or this is firmware/software stuff (providing they would alow switching) that can be done remote

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119954#Comment_120119954

I dont think they would need to do anything. There's no crossover between MCC01 and MCC02 on the same smart meter. If you had MCC01 for instance, 24hr rate, and activate a smart meter to MCC12/16, you can never go to a non smart tariff again. Means MCC02 (and MCC01) isnt available anymore to you.

Same in reverse if you are on MCC02. You can (soon) get an RM107 smart meter that will do MCC02, until you activate and go to MCC12/16. Once you go smart, again, you can't go back. So you cant for instance go MCC01-MCC12-MCC02 for instance, the meters wont do it and the ESBn dont allow it anyway. If you go MCC01 - MCC02, its a meter exchange same as now.

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120027#Comment_120120027

I feel like this going way away from the topic, but having standard digital meter can have either 24h or D/N (MCC01 or MCC02) , isn't it? I mean, consummer preference, not limited by meter can/cannot

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120121#Comment_120120121

It's not going away from the topic, IMO, as it's important to understand the different metering options to clearly assess if smart meters cost you more.

Some of the newest non smart meters can be programmed to do MCC01 or MCC02, yes. But not all. And on the ESBn side, there's always a meter exchange job created and an engineer sent to site. If they see on site that the meter can do D/N for instance, its a software change. But if it's an older one, then they need to physically swap the meters.

In the future, we will have two meter codes for smart meters, currently all domestic smart meters are RM106 type but the newer ones for people currently on MCC02 will be RM107. Ultimately we will all have them installed, I suspect.

kirk.

Looking at ESB site the rates seem reasonably comparable to day/nite if you throw in the 2-4 EV boost assuming you can get it

Haven't studied it closely so could be mistaken

smuggler.ie

Wasnt aware of "old non smart", know analog and digital, perhaps there are digital that can only do 24H or only D/N

Anyway, i fail get my head around how "smart" cannot do all/any out of three tariffs, this like primary school math on the scrap paper, what to talk about sophisticated programs

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120286#Comment_120120286

When the digital came in for new builds round 2010 ? they were capable of dual-tarriff anyway

Presume they were just configured for either option

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120347#Comment_120120347

i get that, firmware/software config to enter on meter t0=00-24, t1=08:00-23:00, t2=.... SAVE

"Smart" is just to dumb to do that, isn't it, despite available remote access, no need to get engineer on site, etc. Perhaps i dont know someething about it 😊

kirk.

Smart refers to the meter obviously and increased functionality

Then there's the issue of pricing and packaging and changing customer behaviour

smuggler.ie

Would you agree, that at the moment, with current MCC01 MCC02 partial/incompatability its decreased in that prospective. Flexibility reduced and consummer options limited.

Unless the plan was/is to get rid of 24H/D/N and enroll ALL of us on smart tariff only.

i speculating here, but with "sweet talk" now, they promiss you option to stay on your current tariff for now. As was advised by ELM327, there is no return if you activate "smart" and apparently you can no longer switch between 24H / D/N if you got new meter but didnt activate - limited by meter itself

Was this advertised anywhere / user informed? I didnt come acros, nor i saw on leaflet they sent that user have option to decline.

When consumer is not provided with clarity it stinks...

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120574#Comment_120120574

You can switch but you need to get your supplier to request a meter change to go from MCC01 to MCC02. There is no change to this process, it's always been that way - requested by your supply company. The only complication is the current smart meters (RM106) cannot do MCC02 and future MCC02 compatible smart meters (RM107) cannot do MCC01.

Down the line, MCC01 and MCC02 will be legacy tariff codes probably not available to move to and grandfathered in for existing customers on those MCCs only, once theres a critical mass of smart meters on smart MCCs MCC12 or MCC16. All of RM106 and RM107 can do all smart tariffs, the difference is in the non smart part.

smuggler.ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124425#Comment_120124425

things getting confusing...

You can switch but you need to get your supplier to request a meter change to go from MCC01 to MCC02.

My digital meter has t0, t1, t2 and counter t0=combined t1+t2 - would i still need meter replacement with this capability, should i choose to swich from MCC02-to-MCC01( or other way around) or just logical re-assigment at the ESB/suppl side?

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124582#Comment_120124582

Those can do 24hr and dual tariff

How they're configured I don't know or if they come factory set ?

kirk.

What were ESBN doing for all the customers changing from 24hr to day/nite up to now

They were hardly swopping out the existing digital meter which was already capable of both ?

smuggler.ie

No idea, this was from day one it was installed. To my believe, factory and providing all europe time bands for tariff's are the same, would make it simple explanation.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124582#Comment_120124582

Site visit necessary. If new type of non smart meter (ie digital) that is capable of 24hr and DN, then no action. Otherwise replace the meter.

However, from a supply company end, all meter type changes must be accompanied by a meter exchange request on the networks extranet.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124621#Comment_120124621

No, they swap out the meter if the existing one cannot do the new tariff. I had a smart meter at the house when I bought it, we changed to Day Night and they came and removed the smart meter and replaced with a day night

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124987#Comment_120124987

You're misreading me

Was talking about the change from 24 to day/nite on the old digital meters

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125157#Comment_120125157

I said the below, and I dont think I'm misreading. I'm also talking about change 24 to DN on the old digital meters.

Site visit necessary. If new type of non smart meter (ie digital) that is capable of 24hr and DN, then no action. Otherwise replace the meter.

kirk.

Ya no worries but I wasn't referring to smart only basic digital

Prior to smart metering

Anyway you answered my question