America executes trans inmate

Gael23

America has administered its first Lethal injection of 2023 to a transgender woman.

Why is a first world country still putting its citizens to death, particularly using a one drug method

phonypony

A barbaric, cruel, outdated and frankly pointless mode of punishment. But USA has always been the land of contradiction. Land of the free, home of the electric chair.

Strumms

he stalked, harassed tortured and killed, took the body and dumped it….

very much pre meditated and organised from what I read. Completely evil.

he and his legal team then decided to use the mental health angle as a get out of dodge card….

id agree that a shot of Midazolam or similar sedative preceding the lethal shot of whatever might be appropriate …but so it goes.

AyeGer

He was legally a man when he committed the crime and was sentenced.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058278673/america-executes-trans-inmate

What happened the 3 drug method???

MrMusician18

Can't see the relevance of the individuals gender here.

Should the person be treated differently because they transitioned? No.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080541#Comment_120080541

Think this is at least part of the reason

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/08/13/drug-companies-dont-want-to-be-involved-in-executions-so-theyre-suing-to-keep-their-drugs-out/

ancapailldorcha

It's a truly disgusting country in some regards. Slash funding to poorer areas, turn the police into cosplaying mercenaries, incarcerate more people per capita than anywhere else in the world and then spend more executing prisoners than it would cost to send them to Harvard.

There is no justification for the death penalty. Not one. Utterly vile.

T-Maxx

Bring back the guillotine I say.

AyeGer

I think a worse punishment would be to spend the rest of your life in an American prison.

Greyfox

Id be in favour of the death penalty in extreme cases if it saved the taxpayer a lot of money but it doesn't even do that so the death penalty seems a bit pointless when a criminal could be given multiple life sentences instead

joeguevara

If you want to discuss the death penalty and specifically the humanity of using lethal injection, why not lead why not lead with the fact that the US have botched 35% of execution attempts this year. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/15/us-death-penalty-data-execution-attempts-botched.

if you want to discuss the plainly inadequate care given to inmates including transgender inmates leading to record levels of suicide then fair enough. https://www.aclu.org/news/prisoners-rights/federal-judge-finds-arizonas-prison-health-care-is-plainly-grossly-inadequate-and-unconstitutional

But the OP has two statements that are in no way connected.

Finally anyone who is in favour of the death penalty can never back their opinion up with facts or statistics other than a macabre want to kill another person.

Panthro

They should be subjected to a lifetime in solitary with the Crazy Frog song on repeat until the day they die.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080624#Comment_120080624

Pretty much perfectly describes the life of a death row inmate. What do you think they endure?

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080611#Comment_120080611

no stats can back it up because if a person is dead, recidivism can’t be measured….. Recidivism is measured by criminal acts that resulted in rearrest, re-convictions or return to prison with or without a new sentence during a period following the person's release.

Botched executions ? Bizarre… every day in every country doctors and dentists administer drugs like Propofol before invasive procedures….that knock the recipient the hell out, for hours in some cases….so why not inject a 3 hour dose of Propofol or similar, followed by whatever drug induces end of life… if after an hour the individual is alive…. Double it. Witnesses can be two medical professionals, the judges themselves, a member of the public and senior Gardai…

not in favour of the death penalty aside from in the most heinous crimes.

Life, humanity is something that each and everyone is entitled to. So is freedom. Freedoms are removed when we jail people, life could be removed from someone if they are proven to have committed terrible crimes and will be a tangible danger. The likes of Malcolm McArthur, John Shaw and Geoffrey Evans…. We know about McArthur but Shaw and Evans came to Ireland to commit one murder a week….

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080653#Comment_120080653

Endure?

In most of the cases punishment fits the crime. (Botched executions included)

sniperman

an eye for an eye

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080697#Comment_120080697

What I mean by stats is states in the US with the death penalty have higher numbers of heinous crimes than states without. That can’t be argued with.

Taking that as fact, are people promoting the death penalty as an eye for an eye or a means of torture. If that’s the case then Let’s discuss that need in the person.

there is no situation that the death penalty works. Especially with flawed legal systems that can convict innocent people.

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080624#Comment_120080624

No amount of carnage merits that!

cgcsb

Interesting, I don't agree with the death penalty myself but also wouldn't be overly critical of those that support it. In the context of America, its just such a violent place with so much racial and class division, so much drug addiction, so much dead end poverty and the violence is gratuitous and extreme. I don't think I could propose anything to really fix it. It's not like in Europe where we have a gripe about x and think y should be done. It's that the USA, like much of the developing world, is completely broken from top to bottom and there is no real answer. I've read about todlers being shot in their parent's cars by other car drivers because someone didn't like their driving. I've read about todlers shooting other todlers and they're completely desensitised to it as a country. They see this on the news and think it's all fine or make some crass comment about the area it happened in as if they're remote from the fact. It's a bonkers place.

BorneTobyWilde

Firing squad would be easier, in the wilderness

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080721#Comment_120080721

The United States is the first world and to them the beacon of the best legal system in the world. It’s not Belize or war torn Africa. The examples you have given as reasons not to be overly critical of the death penalty are the epitome of examples where the death penalty is the worst solution possible. A bonkers place is not an appropriate reason for taking a life because of a crime.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080713#Comment_120080713

But if they hadn’t got the death penalty a certain logic might be promoted that it could be worse again.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080738#Comment_120080738

But they did get the death penalty and the crime rates for the same offences are higher than the states with no death penalty. It’s that black and white. The simple fact is that when a person is about to commit a crime that is punishable by death they don’t stop and go ‘hold on a second, if I become a serial killer, is the death penalty on the table’. Equally they don’t stop and say ‘I better become a serial killer in California rather than Texas because I will evade the death sentence’.

criminals rarely think about the punishment before they commit the crime.

Manic Moran

There is certainly a bit more of "vengeance" in the death penalty than there is 'deterrence", but it's not as if it gets handed out for every offense either. The argument is that the crimes are so heinous that the offender loses his or her right to life.

Questions of cost are a political choice. The last time California had a referendum on abolishing the death penalty, "keep" won and the same referendum "change the process to make it faster to reduce the cost" won.

The question on the matter of false conviction is a far more powerful one, albeit one which can perhaps be mitigated with a higher standard of evidence.

The transgender status of the offender is irrelevant. I doubt Beverly Guenther much cared at least.

GSBellew

Are trans people exempt from sentencing?

I don't agree with the death sentence as such, but should a Trans person be more protected than a non trans, nope, or its another avenue to get out of **** that you did.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080502#Comment_120080502

You're free if you don't go, oh you know killing people and such.

The "land of the free" was never meant to mean free to do whatever you want, it's supposed to be free of the tyranny of the brits basically.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080753#Comment_120080753

I agree with everything you said.

As a criminal barrister I never cease to be moved when every murder case I have been on the senior counsel in his/her closing argument always discusses the Birmingham 6/Guildford 4 and word for word quotes the judge when convicting them for a crime they didn’t commit using words along the lines of’if I could put you to death I would’.

I don't think punishment comes into for things like murder and rape, which are primal sort of things I guess.

But I do think it comes into it for most other crimes. Ireland has a problem with youth violence and drugs because those things aren't punished. Where I live has a problem with dangerous driving because it's never punished.

There should be normal prisons for non-violent offenders, and horrific shltholes that are cheap to run for violent offenders. Punching someone on a night out should be a life-ruining decision.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080759#Comment_120080759

As a civilised society we can never be happy with a situation where torture or inhumane conditions for convicted people can be tolerated. For one it ensures a huge demographic with disdain for authority and exacerbates crime.

as for one punch life ruining…seriously?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080764#Comment_120080764

Yeah, I think anyone who uses any violence isn't fit for society. That's hardly a controversial opinion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080611#Comment_120080611

It's informed by emotion. I don't agree with the death penalty, but those who agree in the case of people who tortured, raped and murdered kids are hardly just looking for the macabre death of a person for no reason.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080768#Comment_120080768

Apologies if I misunderstood but I’d consider horrific sh1tholes for prisoners to be inhumane and at the very least torture. This is why at the very core of a civilised society we have things like the Geneva Convention that protect the very people who would be considered abhorrent such as Nazis or indeed ISIS even though they continuously breach it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080773#Comment_120080773

Fine. If it makes you happy, put people who use violence in the best prisons in the world for a minimum of twenty years.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080764#Comment_120080764

I happened to have the opportunity to meet some current prisoners in Mountjoy last year and during covid lockdowns the conditions they had to endure were inhumane as I understand the meaning of the word. So we do tolerate it

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080785#Comment_120080785

Yes of course, that’s exactly what I said and the obvious alternative.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080771#Comment_120080771

So emotion and retribution by family members is acceptable as the cornerstone of a civilised penal system?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080541#Comment_120080541

Europe stopped selling it

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080799#Comment_120080799

That’s an unfair interpretation of the post you quoted. The suggestion that it’s driven by emotion, isn’t an argument in favour of it’s justification, let alone the idea that emotion and retribution are the cornerstone of a civilised penal system.

The argument in favour of its justification is that it is reserved for the most heinous criminal acts committed against society. The argument is mainly centred around the idea of whether or not it is an appropriate punishment for the crimes for which is it being used. Public opinion informs that decision, which means that the States where it is still used DO still consider it an appropriate punishment -

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/11/09/nebraska-and-california-voters-decide-to-keep-the-death-penalty/

Justice, is the cornerstone of a civilised penal system. Capital punishment is only one aspect of that system, and it is one which is still regarded as humane, and is not regarded as constituting torture, or cruel and unusual punishment.

I support the death penalty in certain circumstances - as an appropriate punishment for crimes committed. That doesn’t mean I have any wish to put anyone to death, nor does it mean that I support the idea of retribution. There’s enough evidence to suggest that retribution by means of the death penalty doesn’t bring the closure which victims or their families expect it should -

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269758014537148

The conditions of their incarceration are an entirely separate issue from the idea of Capital punishment itself.

kneemos

There are humane methods of execution if they must. For some reason they seem intent on being just as barbaric as their prisoners.

naughtyboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080573#Comment_120080573

What utter rubbish, america Is a great country with a few flaws like everywhere else. here in our own country we think nothing of celebrating people who killed children with bombs, the state and its people turned a blind eye for years to a paedophile ring - the state actually funded it and gave it access to children

I love Ireland, it is the greatest country in the world by a long way, but the level of crime and drugs is unreal and we need the death penalty brought back

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080967#Comment_120080967

Whataboutery.

naughtyboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080980#Comment_120080980

Yeah by you

I am sick of this anti American rubbish, america Is a huge country with many states that no longer use their death penalty and have very generous welfare states and are sanctuary states for illegal immigrants

How that fit your stupid and clichéd argument.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080991#Comment_120080991

It doesn't. The thread is about the US. Your whataboutery is just irrelevant drivel.

naughtyboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080999#Comment_120080999

Again you have not answered my point, the US Is a diverse country, new York and texas are like different planets

Your post was racist and you should refrain from that kind of talk , as a mod you would ban someone if they wrote that about Africa

pjohnson

The death penalty is a bit of a waste. Scum like those on death row could be made use of in medical tests/trials, make them be of some use.

walshb

Good enough for the vile scumbag.

Gusser09

We could learn a thing or two from them. The death penalty should be seen as a tool to remove a problem and nothing else.

Plenty of murderers walking our streets which is equally as deplorable as anything the American justice system offers.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081017#Comment_120081017

You didn't make a point and are now openly lying and spewing insults. I won't respond to your drivel any more.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080764#Comment_120080764

I know of 2 cases where a single punch ruined lives.

A guy I worked with was standing outside a club when someone clocked him in the face. He hit the ground and while he survived, he suffered permanent brain damage. He went from being a sharp guy to someone with slurred speeche and who repeats the same sentences several times during a chat.

My Brother was sucker punched when talking to a girl he was friends with. The scumbag had done the same thing to a policeman years previously and got off on the charge somehow on a technidality. Had he been convicted and executed, my Brother would be alive today. Jail time would not guarantee scum like that would be rehabilitated.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080573#Comment_120080573

What did the person who was executed in this case actually do? What was their crime?