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Gardai modifying forms

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  • 23-12-2022 3:38pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    Recently helped a friend get his first application in for a 22 rifle he rang me after dropping it in and told me the garda at the desk knocked the ammunition allowance down in front of him without asking I of course nearly spat my tea out at the audacity of it I am aware of the commissioner's guidelines( very important Guidelines )

    He crossed out the 1000 rounds asked for to 100 again without permission simply because he said "you wont need that"

    My friend didnt know the garda couldn't do this, its a tricky one because I know personally id file a complaint or stop them in the moment but he's a first time applicant and may not want to rock the boat etc

    Thoughts?

    Again this is a rank and file member of an garda Siochana modifying a firearms application at the end of the day.....



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Whenever I apply for a licence, I always submit an additional letter with the application stating why I need x number of rounds.

    If the Guard changed the form in front of me, I'd tell him/her to change it back because that's the number of rounds that I need.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Might as well break him now to the joys of firearms ownership in Ireland.

    Tell him to rock the boat! The EU standard set in one of the directives BTW is 500 rounds per firearm.So that also applies here in Ireland.

    It's not up to the desk Garda to decide what is an appropriate amount of ammo for starters.That's up to someone way above their rank and pay grade.

    Suggest your friend goes back and asks for this persons superior officer and asks why a mere Garda is deciding what is a Superintendents decision should be.Newbie or not.

    Post edited by Cass on

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Hey Grizz,

    What's that reference to the EU standard, per one of the Directives, please?

    If that's the EU standard, then I'd be of the view that the Gardai need to explain when they don't authorise that amount, on an approved licence, by default...

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    @Grizzly 45 You have been told time and again that the EU limit of 500 comes from the European firearms pass which is a firearms passport and NOT a license meaning it has no legally enforceable criteria.

    Also Ireland can impose harsher standards as per the recent mag ban but NOT lesser standards so even if an EU 500 minimum limit existed Irish law is what we adhere to and it doesn't exist in Irish law.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The Garda cannot alter the form and your friend should have taken the application back and refused to sign it with that limit in it.

    The Superintendent can decide to only allow 100 rounds, regardless of what you apply for, but that is the Super's decision. The firearms officer will have a say in the amount but cannot alter your application without your consent.

    I'd either withdraw the application and make an appointment to see a Sergeant or someone else and submit the application, with your original limit on it, citing the FO changing without your consent

    OR

    Ask for the application, change it back to 1,000, photograph it, and submit it to the FO instructing him not to change it again. This is why I suggest everyone photocopy or photograph their applications for just such problems.

    If the FO refuses to accept the application with your limit on it then ask for the refusal to accept it in writing, as the one right we have as firearm owners is to apply (assuming your not disentitled).

    Always create a paper trail, for your own sake. Btw if this person was not the firearms officer then they have even less ability to alter your application. Another helpful tip is to fill in your applications and put them in sealed envelopes for the attention of the Fo.

    If it was not the then a third option is to contact the fo and tell them your original limit, how it was changed without your consent and you want to apply for the original limit regardless if whether it is granted or not, however as that is putting faith in someone else doing this I'd be more inclined to go with one of the two options I outlined above.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 558 ✭✭✭JP22


    Changing the form at desk is unusual and without a reason given highly unusual unless it was the FO and a reason was given. It would be unacceptable to me; I would have firmly but politely question it. (thats easy for me to say with 40+ years in the game).

    IMO anything that’s handed in should be accepted as is and altered later (if appropriate) by senior authorising personnel and a reason given as to why.

    As BattleCorp said, I always include a sheet with additional information as to “why I want something” or “why something has changed”, etc. over the years I found it makes life easier.

    Remember, the FO may not be available and someone else with little or no experience may be thrown in at the deep end and told, sort out those applications. A cover letter with basic additional information helps newbies in the job.

    As Cass said, and I would add for anything important, always create a paper trail.

    For the past few years I fill out the application form (.pdf) and save to my PC (paper trail), plus it’s simple to amend it should Santa bring something new in the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    FO get a power trip from amending that form. Happened to me on my first application. An experienced FO decided to cross out one of referees as it was my mother. He said I need an non family member. I said where’s that in the form? It just says not a member of AGS. He said that’s not there but it’s what’s needed so think of someone else while he checks rest of form. I waited for him to check rest of form which was solid. Then told him I’m happy with my referees and the super can request a new referee if he decides to. I then asked his name and shoulder number and wrote it into my phone as he watched me do it. My mother gave me a glowing praise when contacted (for once!).

    I held my ground. Then again I’m a fiery Corkconian and big into my rights. (AGS worst nightmare). My advice is to ring the station and find out who’s dealing with applications…is it the regular FO or a newbie. Then arrange meeting with newbie/regular FO, have him revert it to you’re 1000 rounds In front of you. Take the power back. Then send an email to the district office complaining you’re application form was ammended/tampered with and you what an apology and explanation as to why? Quoting the commissioners guidelines in the email that for target shooting 1000 rounds is recommended.



  • Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭freddieot


    Nobody can alter a firearms application form except the person making the application and they could initial any changes made for example at the desk e.g. correcting a spelling or something like that. Any application submitted must go forward as is. If the super does not like something they can ask for clarification or they can refuse the application.

    It's your signature on the bottom of a legal document. A document, which together with any and all supporting documents, might end up in court if there is a refusal.

    That's before you even consider GDPR, breach of SOPs etc.

    Personally, I probably check and recheck the form 10 times before I drop it into the station in order to make sure all ts are crossed. After that, I would be unimpressed if someone took a biro to it. Luckily the local guys here are sound and don't do that kind of nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭ace86


    I think the whole licensing application needs an over haul and maybe move away from paper but to an electronic based system with a bit more transparency. I have waited nearly 6months for a 6 week substitution and was every few weeks ringing and only getting fobbed off from one person to the next. In the electronic system if u required a suppressor or 1000rds etc there would a drop down menu you would state your reasons why u wanted it or they would be pre populated and you could select them also if the Super wouldn’t give them to you to state his reasons why instead of just saying “NO” like a lot of the time never giving a valid reason bcos it’s only over the phone or face to face. It might make things a lot easier for buying firearms and doing substitutions etc and be a more user friendly for everyone but probably won’t happen if we know this country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭.243


    id be asking him since he can alter paperwork if he could downgrade the cost or points on a speeding fine



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Quite correct there Cass.It is Re the EU firearms passport and from the amount of ammo you can travel with between EU countries . Mea Culpa!

    HOWEVER, I know where it is coming from too my confusion.

    The Garda guidelines! Recommending 250 rounds for vermin hunting, 750 for clays and game, 1000 rounds for target shooting, and 500 for deer hunting.Sure, they can reduce or add or whatever they want.But then that leaves the question open are "guidelines" just that as in the firearms law,but somehow utter "law" when it comes to something like Covid? Seems the word "guidelines" can have a very flexible interpretation in Ireland depending on circumstances.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Those limits are Guidelines because nowhere in any of the firearm acts are limits placed on the amount of ammunition a person can possess. The guidelines offer a guide for both Super and applicant but if you show good reason for needing more you can apply and get it.

    As for COVID, no idea what that has to do with anything shooting related.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Im saying "Guidelines" are a very flexible term in Irish legislation.

    Sometimes rigidly eforced ala Covid,other times as in firearms law "shure they are just guidelines with no legal standing"as one super said to me re an ammo increase.Hope that clarifies things.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    No it doesn't clarify things.

    COVID laws were brought in under the Health Act using emergency powers which means they were actual laws and fully enforceable. It's why the Dail voted on them and later to extend them.

    Anything enforced as a law with no legislation to support it, is a guideline and should be viewed as best practice, recommended action(s), or simply a set of criteria to help guide you through a process.

    Again, COVID has no bearing to this topic so I'm hesitant to continue to discuss it, but felt the matter needed clarifying.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭charlesanto


    I can't imagine why anyone would need 1,000 live rounds.

    Any help understanding this would be appreciated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    Research the term lot testing for .22lr ammunition, if you need any more clarification on the subject then get back to us.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Competition shooting, depending type, can use from 100 to 300 per day. If you have a weekend event you need double this plus an additional amount in case of batch failure.

    Secondly the different types of ammunition. Some are designed solely for target shooting, other for hunting and neither are suitable for the other activity. So you need as variety of both and that is without going into grain, shot size, and other factors .

    Then there is the legal issue. Once a round is fired the empty case you are left with is still classified under Irish law as a live round. Meaning if you had a 1000 limit and had 500 empty cases then you can legally only have 500 live ones.

    There are a host of other factors which include, but are not limited to;

    • Buying batches of the axact same ammo because it performs the best and you want a steady supply (something which is sorely lacking on our little Island)
    • Batch testing
    • Load development
    • Distance to the nearest stockist (it's not always available locally and RFDs can keep odd hours)
    • Cost effectiveness of bulk buying


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    • Buying batches of the axact same ammo because it performs the best and you want a steady supply (something which is sorely lacking on our little Island)
    • Distance to the nearest stockist (it's not always available locally and RFDs can keep odd hours)

    I used those two points when applying for my licenses and got the Max of 1000 rounds without issue .



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45



    If you are a pro or semi-pro in clay pigeon shooting you could easily burn this amount in a couple of days of practice. At the international level at the peak of your game, expect to be burning this per DAY of practice!

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Just to expand further on what Cass has said, if you do all the NASRPC smallbore events at a competition you could easily surpass 1200 rounds. The following are events that you could shoot and the round count associated with them.

    Time & Precision SB Rifle - 30 rounds

    Time & Precision SB Pistol 30 rounds

    Time and Precision SB Pistol Open - 30 rounds

    Multi-target SB Rifle - 24 rounds

    Multi-target SB Pistol - 24 rounds

    Multi-target SB Pistol Open - 24 rounds

    GP40 - SB Pistol - 40 rounds

    GP85 - SB Pistol - 85 rounds

    25m SB Pistol - 30 + sighters

    25m SB Pistol Open - 30 + sighters

    Single handed SB Pistol - 30 + sighters

    25m precision SB Rifle - 30 + sighters

    50m precision SB Rifle - 30 + sighters

    1020 SB Rifle - 102 rounds

    1500 SB Rifle - 150 + sighters

    Benchrest Factory Sporter - 50 + sighters

    Benchrest HV - 50 + sighters

    Benchrest LV - 50 + sighters

    Benchrest Rifle Semi Auto - 50 + sighters

    Sporting Rifle 50m prone - 40 + sighters

    Sporting Rifle 100m prone - 40 + sighters

    Field Sporting Rifle 50m prone - 40 + sighters

    Field Sporting Rifle 100m prone - 40 + sighters

    Open Field Sporting Rifle 50m prone - 40 + sighters

    Open Field Sporting Rifle 100m prone - 40 + sighters

    As you can see from the round count above, that's over 1200 rounds of .22lr that could be shot at a weekend event. Being honest, nobody is going to shoot all of them in one weekend but if it was a big shooting weekend such as the Irish International Open (Friday,Saturday and Sunday) you'd shoot as many of them as you could. A lot of people would shoot half of them so they could easily use over 500 rounds. And a competitive target shooter could easily shoot several thousand rounds in the few weeks coming up to the competition. As you can see, a limit of 1000 rounds isn't much use to a competitive target shooter.

    Sorry if I'm coming across as a d1ck but 1000 isn't the max. You can get larger allowances than that on your licence. I've significantly more on some licences. But you are 100% right about the batch consistency end of things. I bought two different batches of CCI several years ago and they weren't within an asses roar of each other for consistency. You'd think they were different brands the POI was so much different.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Because a spent round is considered part of your ammo allowance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    I originally applied for 1500 rounds on my first license application and firearms officer responded with “ Now you know that’s not gonna happen”Appreciate you can fight for more but 1000 on each license is enough for my use .

    That has me wondering now , if You have 1000 per license and have 3 licenses , are you authorised for 3000 rounds?Reading the license it’s say in your possession so does that mean 1000 is the max no matter how many licenses you have?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I don't know if this is right or wrong but I'd consider that if you have 3 licences, each with 1000 rounds, then you'd be allowed 3000 rounds in total.

    The reason I think that................I'd have different brands of ammo for different guns. My gallery rifle is either CCI or SK. Benchrest needs more accurate ammo than CCI/SK so that's RWS50. My pistol doesn't really like CCI so I've to use different .22lr ammo for that. Hence the need for 1000+ rounds for each gun rather than 1000 rounds in total.



  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Why does an used round come into the equation? Why hold on to them?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Force of habit. I rarely dump brass, at least for a while, when on the range and when out hunting I always bring back my spent "brass" to be disposed off later

    In short I always have a few dozen to few hundred empties (of various calibers) .

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  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Recycling, anti-littering, good manners to clean up after yourselves. And any of you out there with 105mm or 17 pounder shells holding your pokers or umbrellas or maybe a bullet belt from an army surplus store, make sure you have the appropriate license because these are considered firearms

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭BSA International


    If on the range they go in bins provided. If hunting into pocket, shotgun cases into recycling, rifle shells squashed and into recycling, never hold on to them for longer than it takes to get home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    "Shotgun cases and rifle shells" in your recycling bins count as possession

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Rifle/pistol brass.Take home ,belt with a hammer to make it unusable, and melt with oxy propane torch, into brass ingots,in an old muffin tray.Take to scrap dealer when enough to hand.

    Brass is currently 3.50 a kilo going by Scrapyard.ie [Lead BTW 1euro /KG] Sell and buy more ammo.

    Recycling complete.😎

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Yes, if a Garda was going through my rubbish, charged me and a Judge convicted me.



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