Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952027#Comment_120952027

Francie, I am still waiting for an answer to my question to you a few posts ago, i.e. do you think there is any possibility of Ireland rejoining the United Kingdom.

I will help you understand the basis of that question.

If there were more northern Irish people living in the Republic of Ireland than in Northern Ireland, then I would think that would be a strong message that people were choosing with their feet that they wanted to live under at the Dail, and a united Ireland would seem logical.

My question is because I just read something yesterday that stated that there are now more Irish people living in England than there are in the Republic of Ireland. It would therefore seem logical that the majority of Irish people feel it is better to live under Westminster and the British system, including NHS and tax regime.

Would that seem like a reasonable observation?

And does that make Ireland rejoining the United Kingdom a possibility in the future?

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952369#Comment_120952369

My question is because I just read something yesterday that stated that there are now more Irish people living in England than there are in the Republic of Ireland

I don't suppose there's any chance of you backing that up because it sounds completely unbelievable.

I don't think there's any chance of Ireland rejoining the UK. Looking at how Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are treated as part of that Union as well as having to give up EU membership and losing our freedom to travel i can't see enough Irish voting to rejoin the UK.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952369#Comment_120952369

Short answer = No.

There is not the remotest chance that will ever happen.

IMO, as I said, the UK is breaking up, with it's constituent parts growing further apart. IMO The English are pushing the partitioned region of Ireland further away and will continue to do this, first with an Irish Sea border then via calling a BP and forcing the Irish government (If it is still made up of the FF FG parties) to produce a plan for unification.

There is zero evidence of the slightest desire to join the UK.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952296#Comment_120952296

She was just one of those interviewed for the paper. Noticeable that not a single senior person from the NHS or HSE were interviewed. The paper is enough to start a conversation, nothing more, but it seems that once again, when you move beyond the platitudes and slogans, and get to the real hard detail, that posters are afraid to engage.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952369#Comment_120952369

You've read that there are more people of Irish descent living in England than Ireland, not more Irish people living there. There are clear and obvious historic reasons for that, particularly around places like Liverpool....I won't insult your intelligence by explaining further.

The number of Irish-born people living in England is pretty similar to the number of English born people living in Ireland.

All that aside, if we were to follow your reasoning to it's logical conclusion, we'd be joining the US rather than the UK, there are almost as many folk of Irish ancestry in the US as the entire population of England.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952424#Comment_120952424

That's just more shooting the messengers tbh.

Why won't you address what they had to say? Why are you moving beyond that to questions that are way down the road?

Is it perhaps because you and the unionists who object (to any talk of working together or unifying services) are afraid the outcome might be positive and proof that we are better working together on an all island basis and what that might mean for the constitutional question?

Seems to me if there is progress on all island healthcare then another of the big blockers to unification would be removed. Just as the recent clarity on the subvention has silenced 'the scary 10/11/12 billion day one cost' sensationalists.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952424#Comment_120952424

Let's not deflect, Blanch. You specifically called out Laura Megahy with the snide, 'she's an expert on healthcare? News to me' comment. Let's not dilute the point, what did you mean by this? Do you not think a former Sláintecare director is an expert on healthcare reform by any reasonable standards? We can address other experts afterwards, but let's get this all cleared up first.

I suspect the reality is that you didn't have a clue about her connection to Sláintecare and now you're desperately backpedalling and deflecting to save your blushes.

FrancieBrady

Fair point.

https://twitter.com/FeileBelfast/status/1688652674575572992

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952410#Comment_120952410

Could you help me as to why do many Irish are choosing to leave the superstate m, of which many are choosing our Uk as their preferred home?

ittakestwo

More people from ROI living in England than NI? Englands population is 56million, NI is 2 million. England is 23 times the size of NI so obviously will have more attraction. I would say more people from England live in the ROI than NI too for the same reason that ROI is 2.5 × NI.

You should probably look at the rate at which people are going to live in a place if you're trying to infer a stronger connection.

There would be alot of brain drain from ROI graduates to london. Always was. Not so much NI. Also people would not need to move from the ROI to work in NI. Most likely would just drive.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952762#Comment_120952762

Have you data on the UK being their 'preferred' home?

As Fionn says, there are as many UKers choosing to live here and in Europe.

People move for all sorts of reasons. People move with the intention of coming back too.

Would you say all UK expats would vote to unify with the countries they end up in?

Just pointing out the lunacy of your inferences on this. And once again 'superstate' is your invention.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952776#Comment_120952776

NI does have an issue with a brain drain...a lot never come back.

https://www.ft.com/content/6a0a0eae-dcb5-45ce-a813-505977b8e7a3

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952467#Comment_120952467

She is listed in the document as a director of Slaintecare, where I got her name, so your accusation on that front is way off. However, being a director of Slaintecare does not a health expert make. She is in her role due to her corporate governance experience, much like Anne O'Leary at RTE, who is not a broadcasting expert.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953157#Comment_120953157

It makes her a pretty damn good expert on healthcare reform, Blanch.

Corporate governance is precisely what we're talking about here; while active medical practitioners will certainly be an important voice, the meat and potatoes of reforming any service is (and should be) taken care of by those who's expertise is on the governance side.

Quite frankly if you DID know her role, your singling her out as, 'not an expert' on this topic is even more embarrassing.

While I wouldn't ask Anne O'Leary the best way to set up lighting to shoot a news broadcast, if I wanted to build a plan to reform RTE so the tax payer can get more value for money, I'd certainly value her opinion more than the set gofer or the cameraman. I might want to hear their opinions, but I wouldn't be dismissing Anne O'Leary as inexpert because she isn't a newsreader.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953179#Comment_120953179

Well we can agree to differ on an opinion of Laura Megahy.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953222#Comment_120953222

Nah, you're just talking sh*te on this one, Blanch. Someone who was a Director of a health service reform program absolutely cannot be dismissed as, 'not an expert' on the topic of f*cking health service reform with a simple, 'agree to disagree'.

We can move on if you want to run away from actually providing any justification for your madcap nonsense beyond, 'hur hur hur, Unification bad.....whatever Francie say, I say opposite', but I doubt that you'll find a single person who doesn't spend the majority of their day living in a padded room who will agree with you that someone who was an Executive Director of a healthcare reform program can be dismissed as, 'not an expert' on the bloody topic of healthcare reform.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953249#Comment_120953249

Laura Magahy has been a director of an awful lot of places, including CIE and Dublin Bus, and I don't see a track record of reform. Well connected all right, but not an expert on healthcare reform, in my opinion.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953271#Comment_120953271

Oh I forgot, we're using the, "how much they agree with Blanch" scale of expertise. You're a spoofer.

downcow

Francie was lauding the good folk of Derry a few pages back for being so progressive and sorting out their bonfire problems. I wouldn’t like to see what would be happening if they hadn’t sorted them out! And another republican community in Derry has been busy gathering up wreaths and taunting that they will be burning them on their bonfire.

I could be wrong but I didn’t see any trouble reported at any of the 1,000s of unionist bonfires this year, to even come close to the few nationalist ones - and a week to go. This is why unionists can do bonfires and nationalists can’t.

but i will not come on hear and patronise you that I am very worried about the health and safety of the young republicans.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66437029

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953521#Comment_120953521

If that bonfire is wrong (and it is) then all that do the same are.

Burning in this way is also environmentally toxic by anyones logic and if unregulated - dangerous for those building them and taking part. How many have to be killed and injured before mature decisions are taken?

Here you are though and all you can do is play ‘look at themuns’ over something I readily condemn in any community doing it.

P.S. I was 'lauding' political representatives and youth bodies getting involved in diverting the energies of youths into positive expressions of their culture. They did this by first understanding why they were behaving as they were.

I see nothing only encouragment in the Unionist community and a pathetic attempt to claim once again that something toxic is a 'cultural pursuit' that must be defended. The youth don't have a chance.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953573#Comment_120953573

You bar for success is quite low. Dragging people out of cars for beatings isn’t a wonderful cultural expression

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953886#Comment_120953886

The only person making a stand for this behaviour as a cultural right for youth is you. It has been rightly called out in any community it happens in by most others here.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953913#Comment_120953913

Oh I absolutely condemn it without reservation. Disgusting behaviour. Although it’s not really my place to condemn it. Teenager girls were being put in hospital and people dragged from cars for beatings in my community, then bonfires wouldn’t last long.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954021#Comment_120954021

We know for a fact that violence is as much a part of your community than most communities.

You want to live in denial that paramilitaries are controlling loyalist bonfires to control communities then carry on, none of the rest of us have to do that.

They threaten anyone who wishes to make them safe or regulate them, the world can see that happening and the world can see the efforts been made or not being made to control these toxic events or to replace them with positive cultural activities.

Once again a community is being left behind because their political leaders are too frightened to or don’t want to lead.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954109#Comment_120954109

Francie it’s you that’s in denial as usual. Unionists have community festivals on the 11th, most of those conclude with a bonfire or beacon. Republicans, in contrast, go on an orgy of violence. One young girl who was caught up in the violence will be getting plastic surgery to her face today, having had her double broken jaw worked on yesterday.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955177#Comment_120955177

Orgies of violence you say?

Eleven paramedics attacked at bonfires on eve of Twelfth - BBC News

Police are pelted with rocks in second night of violent clashes in Belfast ahead of July 11 bonfires | Daily Mail Online

Trouble flares in Northern Ireland during Eleventh Night bonfires | BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Violence is feared if council clears Belfast bonfire site | Independent.ie

Here are the bold statistics on what is happening re: bonfires. I would contend that it is because there are leaders on the ground changing archaic attitudes to these toxic events.

While Protestant perception of bonfires has remained relatively stable across these surveys, perception of bonfires from Catholic respondents and those who identified as having “no religion” has dropped dramatically. While 24 percent of Catholic respondents and 53 percent of respondents with no religion either “agreed” or “strongly agreed” that bonfires were legitimate in 2016, by 2020 this number had dropped to 17 percent and 32 percent, respectively. In the same period, the percentage of respondents in these categories who “disagreed” or “strongly disagreed” has grown: from 51 percent and 24 percent in 2016 to 64 percent and 46 percent, respectively, in 2020. This change is not mirrored among those from Protestants who are most likely to celebrate these events or to have bonfires celebrated on behalf of “their” identity, demonstrating how bonfires have drawn a social boundary. 57 percent of Protestants surveyed in 2016 “agreed” or “strongly agreed” with the statement, while 20 percent “disagreed” or “strongly disagreed.” In 2020, these numbers were 56 percent and 24 percent. 

Full article: Vanity of the Bonfires? Eleventh Night Bonfires and Loyalist Influence After Negotiated Settlement in Northern Ireland (tandfonline.com)

As I said the Unionist community are behind the curve on this practice, which your own government has assessed is controlled by paramilitaries.

Instead of diminishing like they are elsewhere, these toxic events are getting bigger and more sectarian because those paramilitaries have convinced the PUL community that they are fighting a culture war. Here is what your own government found in a study:

Bonfires represent a way for paramilitaries to "extend their legitimacy and control community activities", the study says.

Although authorities do not condone paramilitarism, there are concerns that bonfire management programmes can place staff in a position where they are "turning a blind eye to alleged paramilitary influence".

Many officials are "operating in an environment were rules are at a minimum and the power essentially lies with unofficial organisations and unelected individuals".

The government-backed study outlines the scale of the problems facing emergency services, councils and other public bodies in tackling unsafe and contentious bonfires.

Paramilitary control of loyalist bonfires exposed in leaked report - The Irish News

What happened in Derry is ALSO WRONG and you using those events to deflect away from and defend your own community is not tenable.

Seth Brundle

Mod: ok I think this thread has outlived its usefulness as yet again the usual few are going at it in a tit-for-tat game of which side is better and as someone who is expected to read through this, it's an absolute pain.

I would also recommend that the usual people walk away from any discussions where you see one of you participate as I'm tired of seeing threads where the three or four of you have hijacked them.

If someone wishes for it to reopen then please PM me or another mod and we can review