Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949305#Comment_120949305

You have numerous times.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949328#Comment_120949328

I haven’t.

I am critical of the governing parties and I think sections have been failed by them but I have never described it as a failed state.

We have a functioning legislature and government and do not require an international agreement with another state just to function.

FrancieBrady

Typical really that there is Unionist angst that she said it, not angst about why she said and what are the reasons it ‘needs to happen’.

And of course not forgetting that like the economies, unified approaches to healthcare is already happening.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/uup-seek-clarity-royal-college-27470983

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949356#Comment_120949356

If I am not mistaken you required an international agreement with 26 countries to get out of the incredible mess you were in. My memory of going south 30+ years ago was that you could forget about phoning home as the coin boxes never worked. If you were travelling to the far side of Donegal, you should allow yourself about two hours for the 100 miles to the border and then about two hours for the 20 miles on the other side of the border. But the UK, and 25 other countries pulled you up after you had agreed to sign an international agreement. Of course Sinn Fein opposed it up until the incredible about turn a few years ago.,but hey that’s nothing new

As for Unionists, hating the gfa, I like many others voted in favour of it, it wasn’t perfect, but it required the surrender of violent republicanism. We were willing to swallow a few better pills to stop the IRA sectarian campaign.

The fact that we found out afterwards that dirty deals had been done behind the scenes, and that some of the promises were not carried through, really is a minor detail in stopping the sectarian killing

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120948739#Comment_120948739

This is pure gold. We have Northern Ireland firmly situated within the UK, republicans have completely acknowledged Northern Ireland’s right for self-determination, The IRA have been defeated, belligerent Republicans are on the back foot - and Francie wonders how Unionists will ‘extricate themselves’. The level of spin here Francie must make you dizzy. Unionists have the union. Republicans have a distant aspiration of their utopian 32 County Republic.

while all the dying was awful on all sides, we still have the union. I can’t begin to imagine what sort of discussions take place in the Rock bar or Crossmaglen following the neutralisation of their 30 year campaign.

things are just fine as they are Francie. Compromise has been reached and The union is secure.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949490#Comment_120949490

Are you trying to convince yourself or others?

To deny that Unionism is in a hole and still digging is rather fabulous tbh.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949677#Comment_120949677

If carlsberg done holes!

would unionists have dared to imagine, in the early 80s, in the middle of a vicious sectarian campaign, that we would be where we are 50 years later.

The IRA defeated, militant Republicans with no support, the right of self-determination for the country of Northern Ireland enshrined in an international agreement and supported by practically all the peoples of the world. We all knew Catholics would outnumber Protestants in the decades ahead, but could we have dreamt of those Catholics, in significant numbers, were going to turn their backs on the united Ireland dream. We have a growing Northern Ireland identity. We are still wholly within the United Kingdom - incredibly accepted by those that were trying to bomb and shoot us out of the United Kingdom. They are even sitting in a United Kingdom regional parliament in Stormont - crazy stuff.

Sure, Brexit has caused a few problems and we would like to be able to choose ham sandwiches on the ferry home from Scotland, but it would be completely unreasonable of us, not to accept that the last 50 years have amounted to upwards and onwards for OWC in the United Kingdom.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949883#Comment_120949883

A ‘few’ problems?????

Deluded thinking right there. Unionism in decline, is 3 leaders now it has cost you. The FM position etc.

DUP ruptured and briefing against each other and the leader.

And STILL nobody knows what they want even if they could salvage something?

Yeh, you are in great shape alright 😁😁

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949952#Comment_120949952

I think you are getting confused between Northern Ireland’s stability and the DUPs instability.

Its just a few pages ago some posters, can’t remember if you were involved, were claiming our national stadium was a sectarian cesspit. Thankfully the brandywell club with Ira chanting supporters don’t agree. They have been invited by linfield to use Windsor as their home stadium for big games, and they jumped at it. A great move by IFA and linfield.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949972#Comment_120949972

What the hell is the deflection about? Can’t bring yourself to type Derry City? 😁😁

Unionism is in a hole, the DUP troubles are a symptom of that.

NI has no government and you are claiming there is only instability in the DUP??

Just bizarre

FrancieBrady

I do wish you’d tell the truth . They did not get invited they asked Linfield ok to use the taxpayer funded stadium.

"So at the weekend we started to talk about 'would it be a possibility to use Windsor Park?'. I approached Linfield FC and they came back to me with a positive enough response.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66422064

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949995#Comment_120949995

You are so suspicious francie. You think everyone is like yourself.

derry is the team and I never heard a unionist call them anything else Derry, Derry, Derry.

its you have problems saying the name of the city or the name of my country, but I’m not insecure and it doesn’t bother me.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120950680#Comment_120950680

You didn’t write it initially but went a roundabout way.

And then tried to say Linfield and the IFA invited them, they didn’t, did they? They were asked.

With the GAA giving Casement they could hardly have said no.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120950727#Comment_120950727

Now the old sectarianism seeps out. You’re letting your guard down. Now just what exactly could the GAA lending casement have to do with this?. I think we all know, so you won’t need to answer that question.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120950794#Comment_120950794

Jesus Christ, Downcow....you spent a few days with a victim complex about the local residents near Casement hypothetically not welcoming you, don't play the innocent fool now when the shoe is on the other foot.

The comparison is that both stadia are publicly funded.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949883#Comment_120949883

Great. The GFA was a fantastic deal for unionism. Can you tell the staunch unionists like Jamie Bryson who believe it was a deal where nationalism must get and unionism must give. Nearly all nationalism supports the GFA. Perhaps it something can be shared or must the zero sum game always apply to everything in NI politics.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951231#Comment_120951231

Jamie Bryson is playing the game that republicans played for decades - what Arlene referred to as feeding the crocodiles. He’s never satisfied, continually claiming inequality and injustice, and using what he calls lawfare. He just won his latest case this week which is another big victory for his crocodile behaviour and I see he has just launched a case of misconduct in public office against a chief constable and some government officials - he doesn’t need to win them all, that’s not how the tactic works. Republicans used violence and protest when they had no mandate, he is using lawfare etc and part of being an effective hungry crocodile is constantly saying the gfa is not giving us enough.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120950841#Comment_120950841

He must be chuffed how you jump to his defence, but that is not why francie linked them, and we’ll you know it

downcow

Do you think a unites Ireland within a United Kingdom will ever be a real possibility? Not that I would want a Ui under any circumstances. I would be very happy though if roi decided to rejoin the union

downcow

Not much to panic about there:

“Well over a third of Catholics remain unpersuaded by the case for an all-Ireland republic. They would either vote for the Union in a referendum, wouldn’t vote at all or haven’t made up their mind.

It’s hardly a decisive statistic, but it casts doubt on the nationalist argument that demographic changes will inevitably deliver a 32-county state. And that is against a backdrop of almost ceaseless media stories and panel discussions that try to imply the republican campaign is on the brink of success.”

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/owen-polley-polling-shows-risk-065632548.html

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951260#Comment_120951260

To quote your own mother, "as you live your life, you dread your neighbour", Downcow.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951260#Comment_120951260

It's precisely why I linked them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951272#Comment_120951272

The UK will do well to hold itself together (I think it is in a 20 year process of breaking up tbh) never mind expand.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949427#Comment_120949427

Just to go back to this and the thread topic.

What do people think of the idea of unifying healthcare on the island?

Everybody would agree that both services are not fully performing for the people, that's a given I presume.

Would an all island healthcare service deliver better outcomes for all?

There is a range of common challenges surrounding healthcare on the island of Ireland, but important opportunities have emerged to collaborate on tackling issues of mutual concern, which will bring benefits to both jurisdictions.

Current challenges include: reducing health inequalities, enhancing the quality and sustainability of services, developing evidence-based responses, meeting expectations of a growing and ageing population, and addressing relatively high levels of mental ill-health.

Over the past two decades there has been a consistent commitment at both ministerial and departmental levels in both jurisdictions to collaborate on issues where there are mutual benefits to be gained. There is a recognition of the opportunities in healthcare to design and deliver services that efficiently utilise resources to enhance the health and well-being of both populations. In the future, healthcare interventions will have to utilise technological advancements to enhance productivity, develop centres of excellence and empower people to effectively manage their own healthcare.

All-island approaches have the potential to address some of the current issues and ensure that Ireland as a whole is well placed to deal with future challenges. This joint approach involves both working within current structures and developing new all-island structures. Participants in this study were overwhelmingly positive about the opportunities presented by developing deeper and further integration. A consensus existed around an unassailable case for assessing key aspects of future healthcare provision through an all-island lens. There has been, however, frustration around a perceived lack of impetus for this type of working, despite its obvious benefits. Notwithstanding the political sensitivities associated with an all-island approach, there was a strong view that there should be a relentless focus on achieving better health outcomes for patients.

It was reported that without a framework and vision for collaboration, interventions would remain fragmented and piecemeal. Robust mechanisms and policies are needed to tackle systemic and complex healthcare challenges, assess potential economies of scale and support the work of clinical staff with scarce specialist skills.

Given the similar health challenges faced by each jurisdiction, working collaboratively in order to maximise the potential for service planning and delivery should be a policy priority. 

heenan_arins.pdf (ria.ie)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952027#Comment_120952027

I thought that it was not possible to give a view on uniting health care and education and social welfare because we need experts and the government to tell us what to do. Happy to see the position has now changed.

Great to see you getting the ball rolling on this one. First question, will a unified system be adopting the free GP for all system in the North or the limited version in the South? If the former, who will pay for it?

Second question, you make a statement that neither service is performing for the people. Can you give me an example of a different country where life expectancy is increasing faster than in Ireland? After all, that is the ultimate measure of health, taking preventative and curative together.

Third question, will you be standardising pay rates, GP grants and charges? Will all pay rates and grants go up and will all charges go down?

I suspect that the kite you are flying will be quickly drawn in.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952085#Comment_120952085

Em...I think I posted an 'expert' view there blanch.

Immediately you come back with a 'who will pay' negative question.

We all 'pay' one way or another for our health services. The 'money' has to come from somewhere. The NHS doesn't function on some magic money tree.

I don't know what system will be adopted, or what pay and grant systems might be adopted, I asked the question to see if people with a more positive outlook than yours might discuss it.

And it isn't I who is flying kites, there are clearly people more expert than me or you flying this kite (see the link, Ireland's Future have also looked at this)

Maybe you might want to reflect(and the UUP) on that and accept the conversation is happening with or without you and them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952127#Comment_120952127

Laura Magahy is an expert on healthcare? New one to me.

You don't have an answer to any of the simple questions I posed, why am I not surprised?

FrancieBrady

For the info of those who may be swayed by the negativity, this is the full list of Interviewees for the Arins paper, anyone can see that the messenger blanch wishes to shoot is just one of those.:

Interviewees Alexander, Philip: Chief Executive, Cancer Fund for Children, Belfast. Appleby, John: Director of Research and Chief Economist, Nuffield Trust, London. Babington, David: Chief Executive, Action Mental Health, Belfast. Bengoa, Rafael: Professor, Chair of the Bengoa Review. Birrell, Derek: Professor, Social Policy, Ulster University. Bjourson, Tony: Professor of Genomics, Ulster University. Black, Tom: GP, Chair of British Medical Association, NI. Burns, Harry: Professor of Global Public Health, University of Strathclyde. Casey, Frank: Professor, Consultant Paediatric Cardiologist, Belfast Health and Social Care Trust. Compton, John: Former Chief Executive of the Health and Social Care Board. Connolly, Susan: Consultant Cardiologist, Western Health and Social Care Trust. Cross, Judith: Head of Policy and Committee Services, British Medical Association, NI. Cullen, Pat: Acting Chief Executive and General Secretary of the Royal College of Nursing. Devlin, Rita: Associate Director of Professional Practice, Royal College of Nursing. Doherty, Michael: Dr, Vice Chair of Royal College of Psychiatrists, NI. Dorman, Laurence: Dr, Chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners. Dornan, Jim: (deceased) Professor in Foetal Medicine, Queen’s University Belfast. Farrell, Anne-Maree: Professor, Edinburgh Law School. Ferguson, Mark: Professor, Director General, Science Foundation Ireland. Fogarty, Damian: Consultant Nephrologist, Belfast Health and Social Care Trust. Glasby, Jon: Professor, Department of Social Work and Social Care, University of Birmingham. Henderson, Donall: Chief Executive, Foyle Hospice, Derry. Kane, Joseph: Dr, Clinical Lecturer Queen’s University Belfast, and Royal College of Psychiatrists, NI. Knape, John: Dr, Head of Communications, Royal College of Nursing, Belfast. Heenan—Collaborating on Healthcare on an All-Island Basis 447 Magahy, Laura: Executive Director, Sláintecare. Matthews, Anne: Professor at the School of Nursing, Dublin City University. McCrory, Bernie: Chief Executive, Cooperation and Working Together (CAWT), Derry. McElherron, Lisa: Group Director of insight and engagement, Inspire Mental Health, Belfast. McGinnity, Martin: Professor of Computer Science, Ulster University. McIntyre, Gina: Chief Executive of Special EU Programmes Body. McLaughlin, Jim: Professor, School of Engineering, Ulster University. Morrow, Sharon: Director, All-Island Congenital Heart Disease Network. Mulvenna, Maurice: Professor of Computer Science, Ulster University. Nethercott, Raymond: Paediatrician, Western Health and Social Care Trust. O’Connor, Anthony: Professor, Consultant Gastroenterologist, Tallaght Hospital. O’Hagan, Len: Dr, Chair of the All-Island Congenital Heart Disease Network. O’Neill, Ciaran: Professor, School of Medicine, Dentistry and Biomedical Sciences, Queen’s University Belfast. O’Neill, Francis: Dr, Senior Lecturer in Psychiatry, Queen’s University Belfast and Royal College of Psychiatrists, NI. O’Neill, Siobhan: Professor of Mental Health Sciences, Ulster University and Interim NI Mental Health Champion. O’Sullivan, Barry: Professor of Computer Science, University College Cork. Peace, Aaron: Consultant Cardiologist, Western Health and Social Care Trust, Derry. Quinn, Michael: Head of Clinical Information, Health and Social Care Board, Belfast. Regan, Mark: CEO, Kingsbridge Private Hospital, Belfast. Scally, Gabriel: Professor, President of Epidemiology and Public Health, Royal Society of Medicine. Shrime, Mark: O’Brien Chair of Global Surgery, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. Soares, Anthony: Dr, Director Centre for Cross Border Studies, Armagh. Taylor, Mark: Consultant Hepatobiliary and Pancreatic Surgeon, Director of Royal College of Surgeons, Belfast. Walker, Rhoda: Chair, Northern Ireland Rare Disease Partnership, Belfast. Wilson, Richard: Dr, Chair of Royal College of Psychiatrists, NI

Maybe sit this debate out blanch if all you wish to do is stifle the discussion?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952165#Comment_120952165

Wasn't she a Sláintecare Director? One would imagine that's better credentials than you, myself or Francie for a discussion about healthcare reform.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952296#Comment_120952296

I really don't understand that attack on one participant.

I also don't understand why we need to move to full unification and the scary 'who will pay question when they are clearly areas where unification of services can be made if the political will was there. Areas where the costs are mitigated by the superior outcomes for real people as outlined by these many experts.