Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938077#Comment_120938077

as you say Francie, you have grown up in a utopian success, secular, open, tolerant and the sun always shining. I have grown up on a failed, sectarian, orange statelet with poor health outcomes and controlled by religious fanatics. Surely we will be culturally far far apart? Unless you are talking shite and saying what suits each argument?

you wouldn’t do that!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938215#Comment_120938215

So keep inventing opinions for people if that helps.

Twice now this morning alone you have done it. Once for 'ittakestwo' and now for me.

Totally dis-ingenuous or worse.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938209#Comment_120938209

I haven't put forward a specific solution, open to federal, confederal, formal joint authority, dependency, many different possibilities. Without putting them all out there and discussing them, it isn't possible to demonstrate that any of them would be broadly acceptable as a second choice. However, I do believe that 100 years of separation have created a sense that many in the middle or lukewarm on either side would welcome some Northern Ireland identity in any solution and that this group is key to finding a sustainable majority in support.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937554#Comment_120937554

I said in a fedral ireland new states could be drawn up. Donegal would be one of 32 counties finding itself in a new fedral state. It does not need a vote over any other county. The fedral states dont even have to follow boundary lines of counties do they?

The geographical name is ireland. There is no changing that. No government can change a geographical name. So a jurisdiction that covers a geographical place called Ireland will be called Ireland. The terms NI and ROI are political terms that will go on unification.

ittakestwo

I stand by both observations. The working class are more likely to be the perpetrators and victims of sectarianism.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938625#Comment_120938625

There is a geographical term called the British Isles as well. You could make an equal geographic argument for this island to be called Lesser Britain. Lucky that we aren't just relying on geography for names.

Hibernia is an option.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938666#Comment_120938666

As i have said before,i was born and bred in dublin,i have never lived in the british isles in my life

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938318#Comment_120938318

Is your idea of a fedral ireland is welding the ROI and NI together isnt it

I hate the term NI. Lots of nationalists do. It reminds me of division, failure apartheid, supremecy etc. I want the term gone in a UI like many nationlists. Many unionists also hate the ROI term. They associate a flag that represents irish nation with republicaism. As such i think we need a new flag in a UI that people dont find contentious. How do you propose to satisfing people like me who hate the term NI and its made up boundary line. Surely nationlism not insisting on an 1840's flag equates to unionism not insisting on 1920s boundary lines. Or is appeasement only done for unionism and not nationalism?

It will be a new unified jurisdiction. Why keep old boundaries flags anthems and names that have alot of baggage to some when you can easily come up with new names boundaries flags and anthems that have no baggage.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938714#Comment_120938714

That only confirms my point that geographical terms are in the eyes of the beholder, and not as fixed as the other poster might think.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938739#Comment_120938739

They are not in the eyes of any beholder,its a fact that i dont and never have lived in the british isles

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938718#Comment_120938718

You want it to be a new unified jurisdiction. However, the awkward inconvenience for nationalists is the emergence of the third minority in Northern Ireland who want a Northern Irish identity of some sorts. Their support is needed for a united Ireland, and while many of them will be ambivalent about the Union, they equally wouldn't want to be subsumed into a single jurisdiction. It is going to take quite some decades of failure for nationalists to wake up and understand this reality, but a united Ireland will never come, and a federal Ireland is probably decades away at best if nationalists ever understand.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938666#Comment_120938666

The jurisdiction is only covering the geographical island Ireland. The island is not known as lesser Britain it is known as Ireland. You just made the term lesser Britain up for the name of Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938745#Comment_120938745

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles

"The British Isles are a group of islands in the North Atlantic Ocean off the north-western coast of continental Europe, consisting of the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the Northern Isles (Orkney and Shetland), and over six thousand smaller islands."

That you don't accept the geographical construct is neither here nor there. Equally, other people are free to reject the geographical construct of Ireland.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938759#Comment_120938759

In that case,how come my government does not recognise the term "british isles"? I find the term insulting,but you already know that dont you.the only people you hear using that term is the british,but having said that,a lot of them think cork and galway and dublin is in the uk

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938749#Comment_120938749

This NI emerging identity fell in the census of 2021 from 2011. While irish was up. That data really blew up your idelogical arguments for the last few years didnt it.

As discussed before. You cant infer anything from a NI idenity. They could be just identifying to a jurisdiction they live. Put them in a new one and they will identify to that too.

Also still waiting hear these unique cultural characteristics that would define NI as a nation of people rather than just a subset of the irish/British nations living within a gerrymandered boundary line on Ireland.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938759#Comment_120938759

But the jurisdiction does not cover all the British isels and when there was it was called the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. You might as well put a map of europe up which will also shows Ireland on it and argue europe lesser should be the name.

A UI will just have jurisdiction over this place.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

so it is obvious to call the jurisdiction Ireland

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938745#Comment_120938745

Geographically these are the British Isles, they have been called that for centuries geographically and nothing has changed. If someone from elsewhere on the planet pointed out these islands geographically on the globe and called them the British Isles, everyone would know what he / she meant. As an Irish born person I would not mind at all. I am not that easily upset.

FrancieBrady

'The British Isles; is a long defunct term. It has long ago been shown to be here but still it is used.

To compare it to geographic terms in use by the entire world is pathetic tbh.

The very best of luck to anyone so inherently disparaging and insecure convincing anyone that their 'solutions' has any merit or benefit to anyone but those whom they are disparaging on behalf of.

It's 'do anything - but giving Irish people what they decide they want as a democratic majority'.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938868#Comment_120938868

Who do you think "named " them the british isles? Why is the term not officially recognised by the irish government?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938782#Comment_120938782

A lot of those British people who use the term British Isles live in Northern Ireland, it was a common term here too up until a decade or so ago.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938828#Comment_120938828

I have been told many many times by the good republicans around here that it will be a new nation that will be constructed. In that case, why not change the name as well. Hibernia would be my choice.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938789#Comment_120938789

https://www.nisra.gov.uk/system/files/statistics/census-2021-main-statistics-for-northern-ireland-phase-1-statistical-bulletin-national-identity.pdf

You need to have a look behind the statistics you are quoting. Your post perfectly encapsulates the view that there are statistics, damn statistics and lies. A version of the latter applies to your interpretation.

"The number of people who were recorded as ‘Northern Irish only’ is broadly stable - standing at 379,300 people in 2011 and 376,400 people in 2021. However the total number of people identifying as either ‘British and Northern Irish’ or ‘Irish and Northern Irish’ or ‘British, Irish and Northern Irish’ is up from 149,300 people in 2011 to 213,000 people in 2021."

There are more people identifying solely or along with other national identities as ‘Northern Irish’ in 2021 than there were people identifying solely or along with other national identities as ‘Irish’ in 2011. Not to mention the 6% of the population who identify as "Other".

The Northern Irish identity is growing, there are three large minorities in Northern Ireland, and a fourth smaller minority who don't identify with any of the three large ones.

At 33.3% identifying as Irish, we are a long long way from a border poll being likely to pass.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939276#Comment_120939276

It will be a new jurisdiction. But the jurisdiction will be covering all and only a geographical place know as Ireland.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938894#Comment_120938894

Still is a geographic term used by the entire world, if describing this group of islands. If Lanzarote went independent then the Canary islands , geographically would still be referred to by everyone else in the world as the Canary islands. Only very insecure people would think otherwise.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938632#Comment_120938632

Again not what you said

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939316#Comment_120939316

The fact is the NI only idenity was down in 2021 on 2011. The NI only idenity is falling while Irish only is growing. Only 19% of the population say NI only. While irish only had grown to 30%.

The population of NI increased by 100k in that period so all identies should have grown anyway.

You cant infer much from those identities regarding what way a person will vote in a BP. A NI identity could be just identifying to the jurisdiction they live in which is factually true in 2023. Change the jurisdiction and the idenity will change with it unless NI is an underlying nation of people with its unique culture that will remain after a jurisdiction change. But still waiting to hear what this defining NI culture is that would describe them as a nation of people rather than a subset of the irish/British nations living in a gerrymandered created jurisdiction on Ireland.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938625#Comment_120938625

It always amazes me how some republicans think they were the first people here, and that this place was always called Ireland. As far as I know, it was the English that christened it Ireland – so it is interesting how you want to hold onto that.

You say the island can’t change its name, but here are a few of its previous names:

1. Ériu
2. Éire
3. Hibernia
4. Scotia
5. Ierne
6. Juverna
7. Írland
8. Ireland

I quite like Scotia. Maybe that can be the name of our wee devolved bit

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939450#Comment_120939450

Remind me what I said. To clarify I am saying that sectarianism is a working class problem. This argument started regarding the irish rugby team. I said there is no need to split the irish rugby side as basically sectarianism would not affect the players and fans in the way as a more working class followed sport like football with the celtic and rangers sectarian vibe going on could not handle a side with themuns on it.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939489#Comment_120939489

I said no government can change what the geographical name is known as. The name Ireland has stuck. That is the name it is known as in 2023 througout the world and probably also the last 500 years? Going back and saying that at other times in history it was known as something else to a particular group of people is a mute point. It is known as Ireland today.

Also when the whole of Ireland was in the union it was also called Ireland. It is british tradition too to call it Ireland. Just because a 20th century hatred of Ireland developed by staunch unionists after partition will not be catered for when nameing the jurisdiction.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938749#Comment_120938749

northern ireland will not exist so not sure what point you are trying to make there