New Application Questions

Gumbo

Hopefully these haven't been asked before.

New Application for a .22 Rifle.

I have an invitation from a land owner (Friend) who shots on his own land for me to join him.

If I select this option on the Application. am i restricted to shooting on his land only in the future with this rifle?

For example, if I join another group on another piece of land (with the land owners permission), can I shoot on their land?

If i get into target shooting and join a range, can i do this ok on the current licence or is the licence restricted to the land in question on inital application?

Thanks.

skipking

once you have permission you can shoot away. same license will cover you on a range.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999535#Comment_119999535

Thank you.

So I can proceed with my application while deciding what range I want to join or use afterwards.

One last question, I am Dublin based. Any concerns for the FO if the land is in Meath?

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999644#Comment_119999644

I never heard of an issue around land permission in a different county.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999929#Comment_119999929

Thank you.

Cass

The only limitation on land usage is in section 5.2 of the FCA1 which only applies to shotguns. This declaration replaces the old system of the "Farmers license". You are limited to the lands nominated but the license is cheaper.

None of that applies to you.

Once you provide the 2 land permissions, which is the minimum legal requirement, then you have satisfied the conditions for applying. After you get the license, for the reason you claimed, you can use it on all lands you have permission on.

As for target shooting. If you're not a member of a range now or when you apply then I'd leave out as they will demand proof of membership which you cannot provide.

If you decide to take up target shooting later then you can do so and decide if you wish to inform your FO of the changes in circumstances immediately or at renewal time. Its a wired situation that applies to those granted a license for hunting who take up target shooting after being granted a license for hunting only, but does not work as well in reverse (granted for target shooting only and take up hunting later) due to the way the firearms act is written, especially section 2(4)(d) on.

None of that should concern you now though. Fill in the FCA1, skip section 5.2, provide the land permissions you have now, and then shoot whenever you have permission to (assuming you gain permissions after being granted the license) regardless of whether it was declared in the FCA1 when applying.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120000026#Comment_120000026

So I need a letter from the owners of 2 separate pieces of land if I skip Section 5.2?

Cass

Not "if" you skip section 5.2 , but you MUST skip section 5.2.

As said above section 5.2 only applies to applications for a shooting to be used on nominated lands and ONLY those lands.

For every other application (rifle or shooting) you provide two written permission letters from the land owners and apply as normal.

Here is a guide I wrote some time back that might be if help in filling out the FCA1.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120000167#Comment_120000167

I actually came across that post but I thought the new 2020 form had been altered and made it redundant.

For example,

If I select “Hunting” and “Yes” to section 5.1, it now asks for a copy of the licence (wildlife ?)

Cass

It always did that.

The "updated" form is essentially identical to the previous form. The same sections are there and it's filled in the same way.

The licenses have always been your gun license. On the old paper licenses this was listed on the license but when the new licenses come out in 2009 it was not included due to lack of space but the firearms act still states that license to hunt these is covered by the gun licenses.

The only separate licenses needed for hunting are deer, foreshore and perhaps one other I cannot think off right now but all other species under the regular open seasons are covered by your gun license.

So the guide is as valid now as when I posted it

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120000289#Comment_120000289

Thanks Cass.

Do the land owners have to be "Farmers"?

Could they just be substantial Land Owners?

J.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999644#Comment_119999644

There are lots of hunters living in Dublin who have shooting permission in Wicklow, Kildare, Meath & even further afield. Hunting land permission in Dublin is quite scarce with all the housing & developments.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120000459#Comment_120000459

Any landowner(usually with a proviso of holding more than a usual house plot's worth of land ;-)).

Cass

As said above any land owner will suffice.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001243#Comment_120001243

Thanks, hopefully 40 acres should cut it!

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001323#Comment_120001323

Thanks again Cass.

Is one Land Owner enough?

And do i just include a letter separate to the Application Form?

Cass

If I recall correctly there is no legal requirement to have more than one. So one should suffice. You might be asked for more but there is no way to know until you apply.

While there may not be a legal requirement for two or more section 3 of the firearms act says the issuing officer may ask for any and all information relevant to making a a decision in granting a license . It's vague and annoying but don't worry yourself too much as they generally aren't too bad or harsh.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001403#Comment_120001403

Thanks.

All done now, so just have to draft the letter from the land ower.

Keep it simple, state the owners name and address, the address of the land, maybe show a map to indicate scale of land area?

Cass

No need for anything more than a line or two. Something along the lines of;

"I *insert landowners name* give Gumbo permission to hunt and control vermin on all lands owned by me".

Sign it, date and include their name, address and contact number.

That simple.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001426#Comment_120001426

Thanks.

I thought that was the hard part, now to pick a Gun!

Edging towards a Ruger 10/22 based on consistent recommendations here and out in the field so to speak!

Gumbo

Final Question. Lodging Application today!

Question 5.1 - Wildlife Act Requirements.

Do I tick yes or no here? I won’t be hunting any restricted animals. Just small game, vermin etc

Checklist States

“Deer Hunter Licence / relevant licence from the National Parks and Wildlife 

Service, if applicant intends hunting and killing exempted wild mammals 

within the meaning of the Wildlife Act 1976”

I assume I need a wildlife licence if i select yes in 5.1? So I should tick No?

thanks.

slipperyox

yes. tick no

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120024133#Comment_120024133

Thank You.

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021073#Comment_120021073

Best of luck with it! Welcome to the shooting sports world.

Q: anyone know if Hares are protected or not?

Uinseann_16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028375#Comment_120028375

Thats a wholekettle of fish yes you can shoot them

Hares (excluding the following townlands in Co. Wexford: North East Slob, North West Slob, Big Island, Beggerin Island and the Raven).26 September to 28 February

Howeverrr some people argue you can only use a shotgun...

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029076#Comment_120029076

Interesting why are Wexford hares protected ?

shotgun or rifle. On a similar note technically a slug could be licensed to hunt deer

Uinseann_16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029117#Comment_120029117

..... Jaysus you're right hold on a second lemme double check that

Dunno its always been the case to have certain protected areas

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029179#Comment_120029179

Haha I just shook up your world there

Grizzly 45

Interesting why are Wexford hares protected 

Proably because that area is the main wildfowl sanctuary of migratory birds and under Birdwatch Irelands protection?So maybe they figured its easier to prevent poaching or lurching/coursing by banning any hunting in this area with guns and dogs?

On a similar note technically a slug could be licensed to hunt deer

It could and should be.But it won't be!

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029646#Comment_120029646

That makes sense. Wexford has a few unique quirks about it!

Why won’t it be? Can slugs be licensed to shoot other animals here?

Cass

@Uinseann_16 Howeverrr some people argue you can only use a shotgun...

That is because of section 33(3) of the Wildlife act. It makes it an offence to hunt, kill or injure any wild mammal with a shotgun, OTHER than a Hare. Some read that as shotgun only and others use only a shotgun out of a sense of sportsmanship.

I think most people, the vast majority, would not see it as right to shoot Hares with a rifle. It evokes a certain sentiment and most stick to shotguns only.

Cass

Slugs cannot be used because of the same section I mentioned above, section 33(3), which makes it an offence to shoot any wild mammal with a shotgun. So the ammo might make the grade, as per SI 239/1977, but the firearm used to shoot slugs is a shotgun and you cannot use them to hunt wild mammals.

The same section makes it an offence to use a restricted shotgun for hunting wild birds.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029844#Comment_120029844

Deleted... hares already mentioned

Cass

Rosahane - Wild mammals...with the exception of hares which can only be shot with a shotgun

The section does not say only with a shotgun. It says:

"(3) It shall be an offence for a person to kill or injure with a shotgun a protected wild animal other than a hare"

So it's not an offence to shoot a Hare with a shotgun, but is for all other mammals. No mention of "only with a shotgun".

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030005#Comment_120030005

Certainly another nuanced facet of Irish firearms laws. My reading of it is yes a rifle or shotgun on a hare is ok. But seriously Why not shoot a hare with a rifle as everyone shoots fox and rabbits with a rifle? I’d hate to hit any hare with a (birdshot) shotgun as it’s not going to be a pleasant end or clean kill for them either way it goes unless you’re able to sneak up <50M.

I’m shocked that a restricted shotgun cannot be used to shoot birds?!? What difference does a birdshot from a double barrel vs birdshot from a restricted shotgun make? what’s the rationale?

Cass

With Hares I think it's a combination of both misunderstanding the law as well as sportsmanship. I remember from a young age been told not to shoot Hares so I pretty much let them alone.

As for the restricted shotgun perhaps its again an issue of sportsmanship except in this instance state imposed. If you can only fire a max of three rounds at a time then the bag limits will be less.

The more cynical reason is it removes peoples ability to use wanting a restricted shotgun for hunting as their good reason.

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030542#Comment_120030542

Well fair enough but put it this way it’s cruel to hunt a hare with birdshot!

Well my summation in this case is a restricted shotgun can be licensed to shoot hares, a slug can kill humanely and at reasonable distances vs birdshot. Good and sufficient reason. Of course now I’d be arguing that a rifle isn’t allowed to hunt hares as per the wild life act.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030572#Comment_120030572

Hare are considered "game" and can only be shot with shotgun and have an "open" season outside designated areas where they are protected.

As Cass said lots of people won't shoot them at all, me included. Some of it is because they are "another mans' sport"

Shot thousands of rabbits with "birdshot" with no issues. Use 5 or 4 shot in 34 or 36 gram loads.

itisnotgrand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030591#Comment_120030591

Do you have an Act to back this up in regards “game” and “only shotgun” as I’ve just read the wildlife act and there’s zero mention of the word “only”?

"(3) It shall be an offence for a person to kill or injure with a shotgun a protected wild animal other than a hare"

Yes that open season has already been pointed out. And this is a legal discussion not an ethical one.

it’s illegal to shoot mammals (including rabbits 1000s of times, excluding hares) with a shotgun as per the wildlife act. So this has nothing to do with issues only what’s legal or illegal. Birdshot…the hints in the name.

“section 33(3), which makes it an offence to shoot any wild mammal with a shotgun”

OP: Fill in FCA1 and skip 5.2, you must provide the land permissions you have now, and then shoot (the correct animals) on new land whenever you get permission. Have it in writing from the farmer and have it on your person or a photo of it on your phone.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030613#Comment_120030613

There are a number of subsequent amendments to the wildlife act. You have to take them into consideration too. Hares are a protected species and you can shoot them with a shotgun, in season, outside certain areas. You show me I'm wrong.

Rabbits are mammals but under legislation they are an agricultural pest or vermin. They are not a protected species in way hares are.

"Bird shot" is an Americanism for smaller, as in not bb's, buck shot ammo for shotguns. As I said use 4/5 shot in 34/36 gram cartridges on rabbits or hares and you'll get humane & clean kills.

Simple really for those of us who now what we're doing and have been doing it a lot longer than you.

Most hunters follow unwritten ethical and sporting rules as well as old traditions eg no shooing Good Friday, Xmas Day, after 3 consecutive days of frost or snow along with what's in the legislation.

If you've come here to learn try listening........

Grizzly 45

Re Restricted shotguns being prohibited for game shooting.

Wildlife act 1976 Restriction on use of certain firearms etc.

33.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person to kill or injure—

(a) with a repeating or automatic shotgun (other than a repeating or automatic shotgun which is adapted or modified so as to render it incapable of carrying more than three shotgun cartridges), with an airgun, air-rifle, gas-rifle, pistol or revolver, or with any firearm fitted with a silencer device, any wild bird.

Note the lack of the word, suggestion, or other of the word Permanent in this section. So going by that if you plug it down to 3 and declare dual usage on your original application.It can be used to hunt legally.

Why do we have this anyway in legislation? Its a holdover from over 120 years ago.When "market hunting" was a thing and professional wildfowlers still eked out an existence shooting large amounts of ducks and geese for the markets in big cities using punt guns or these types of guns.It was then as refrigeration took over from salting and pickling game going to market, and the spoilage of game became less of a problem and not needing such a massive amount anymore. Shooting became more "sportsman like"🙄 and an inherited snobbishness from our English neighbours about "Dashed unsporting American guns!" that put this 3-shot limit on them. In the Western world that is...Go East and Middle East,and they would look at you for suggesting only having 3 shots in your gun.

Conveniently forgetting that a good gunner and loader in a grouse butt, duck blind or pheasant stand with a matched set of doubles can keep up a rate of fire that puts any pump or semi to shame.🙄

As Cass said lots of people won't shoot them at all, me included. Some of it is because they are "another man's sport"

A very debatable, emotive and subjective point.Plus a lot of superstition about the hare in Irish folklore,that still comes thru occasionally. Personally,I'd rather have a nice dinner of jugged hare than have one torn to bits by some ethnic minorities lurcher and have it flung in a ditch someplace, or worry it will turn into a woman or have 7 years of bad luck ..Or something.

BSA International

Grizzly,

Forgot the folklore around the hare 😉 Yes, that's part of it too.

Very emotive subject alright.

As for the ethnic minorities coursing hares. All of that is illegal as I doubt they have required licences so therefore not the sport I was referring to.

Thankfully hares are making a good comeback in my area.

Use a semi shotgun myself for game but only load 2 x shells. It can take 3. It's the way I was "coached" by those, many who are now gone, who introduced & fostered my hunting education.

Cass

MODERATOR WARNING

Some posts and replies to them have been removed due to multiple breaches of the forum rules.

Anymore incivility, name calling, discussion of prohibited topics, and it's a ban. Simple as that.

Traumadoc

Anyone have a link to the Garda firearms page, the links in the "firearms licensing information" do not seem to work.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033783#Comment_120033783

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/