Cost of shed

Girl Geraldine · 09-12-2022 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058274997/cost-of-shed

Absolute messing. And dangerous messing at that.

The shed structure of the shed ought to be designed by an engineer, or at least specified by a supplier of a portal frame shed that was actually properly designed day one. Not a cowboy who is going to guess the design by eye and cobble it all together from scraps of old crash barriers.

Bolting the columns to the tops of the walls would be useless, unless the bolts have serious embeddment down into the wall and are continuous with the reinforcement, which would need to be beefed up under that section of the wall.

From the sounds of your man, I'd say the wind would lift it up off the walls no bother.

What people need to realise, is it a building job and it is all well and good McIvoring things togther on the cheap, but if something goes wrong and there is an accident, the HSA will absolutely crucify you and everyone else invoved in the building. The HSA are ruthless when it comes to enforcing safety in the construction sector. I as state agencies go, they are second only to Revenue when it comes to ruthlessness.

They do not take any prisoners. They will do you for not having appointed PSDP/PSCS, for not having a appointed competent designer and contractor, for not notifying HSA of the project, and do you for not having CE marked structural steelwork. And anything else they can find when they come to investigate an incident.

Engage in yeehaw building work at your peril.

Tonynewholland · 09-12-2022 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975058#Comment_119975058

Competent designer means what. Have you seen the amount of bad building work done everywhere in Ireland with the last 20 years overseen by professional people who are now claiming it has nothing to do with them.

Girl Geraldine · 09-12-2022 4:17pm

Whatabouterying it away like that won't do much good for you if you're up in front of a judge over an accident.

In this case, competent would mean either a structural engineer with experience of doing agri or portal frame structures, or an experienced farm building supplier/erector who is doing a system/modular buildings that were designed by such an engineer.

If you are building something on your farm, it is your responsibility to ensure that you stay on the right side of the Construction Regulations. As I said, the HSA take no prisoners. They will nail everyone to the wall if they have to come out to an accident.

Trust me, I have seen them in action. They are not a forgiving bunch at all. Like I say, they are on a par with Revenue. They don't just look at the part of the job that caused the accident - they go through the whole job top to bottom and everyone gets their penance for anything not in order, even if it had nothing to do with the incident.

From what I have read on this forum of farm building construction, HSA would have a field day on any of them. I have read all sort of mad sh!t that farmers were DIYing at.

Bullocks · 09-12-2022 6:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975653#Comment_119975653

Could you say what happened , when you have seen them in action ? What was wrong and how did they enforce it ?

DJ98 · 09-12-2022 8:34pm

So have decided we will not go with the cost saving measures and do it once and do it right. So what sort of money can I expect to spend, just on steel for shed, sheeting, timbers and erection of shed. Have a neighbour who will do all digging out and concrete work.

Tonynewholland · 09-12-2022 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975653#Comment_119975653

Your of the opinion that farmers are incapable of building a shed themselves safely or at least should have an engineer to supervise if they do.

Suckler · 10-12-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976812#Comment_119976812

Not necessarily incapable - it's more those days are gone/going. People are now quick to issue claims, Insurance companies are going to find any reason not to pay out. A competent designer will have the cover to deal with these claims. Any design they do will have avoiding claims in mind. The previous poster is correct about HSA. Like the tax man, I wouldn't want to give them an excuse to knock on my door.

Tonynewholland · 10-12-2022 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979532#Comment_119979532

Even if you hire a builder in you're still liable if there is an accident on your farm. A lot farmers still doing the building work themselves for grant jobs. Myself included

Suckler · 10-12-2022 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979898#Comment_119979898

An accident is different to failure of a design. You're playing the 'whataboutery' game as if this is some 'anti farmer' stance. It isn't, the world has changed and the OP's local lads suggestion is a recipe for disaster. What's the cost of doing it right V the cost of losing the farm over cutting corners?

Tonynewholland · 10-12-2022 6:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119980322#Comment_119980322

It's a 16'span

Silverdream · 10-12-2022 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119980451#Comment_119980451

You could use 16ft 9X3 timbers for the purlins if you built a back wall for the leanto. That way you could put in the 9X3s every 6ft. No steel needed at all

The Nutty M · 11-12-2022 7:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119972925#Comment_119972925

Johnny Cash required for that shed.

cute geoge · 11-12-2022 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058274997/cost-of-shed

Reggie on here put a handy shed a while back with crash barriers ,photos and all .It looked a mighty job .I do not know how to put up a link to him ,someone might help

Girl Geraldine · 11-12-2022 3:55pm

The case where I say the HSA in action, I won't give too much detail as I don't want to identify the people or the company. It was a simple enough job, nothing major and part of it involved laying a few pipes along the inside of the ditch. During the work, the dig went past a utility pole. Unfortunately, because of the close dig the pole came loose and fell, striking a worker and leaving him with profoundly life changing injuries.

The incident was reported to the HSA, who came to the site to investigate within the same afternoon, and interviewed a number of people. One wiley lad remembered accident training advice and said they would co-operate but would not answer anything until he had legal advice. Others were interviewed and gave up all information. I think part of the HSA strategy is to arrive very promptly, before the dust has settled and while people are still in shock so that they will give up information, even incriminating information.

The contractor was done for not having prepared a proper Safety Plan and not having risk assessed the activity. They were also done failing to ensure that a trained banksman was on site. They were also done for failing to have valid tickets on lifting gear on the digger, even though that had nothing to do with the accident. The site owner was prosecuted for failing to appoint Project Supervisors, and for failing to ensure that the work was carried out in compliance with the Construction Regulations. It was a big client with huge reach, well used to supervising civil engineering and asset maintenance work, but they slipped up here and because it was only a small bit of a job, they neglected to make the PS appointments. I used to work for the same organisation at the time, but in a different area. There were fines well into the hundreds of thousands on the contractor and the client, and 4 people ended up with criminal convictions personally against them.

Whats more in this sort of thing, they are not civil cases, they are criminal cases, prosecuted by the HSA. And they don't just prosecute the company involved, they personally prosecute the individuals, meaning they are left with a criminal record. The civil cases then for the insurance and the payouts, that is another day's work in court. I don't know the outcome of the civil cases here, but presumably damages into the hundreds of thousands also.

Now, relatively simple jobs like this go on all day every day across the country without compliance with the Construction Regs. I would bet that an majority of farm construction jobs like sheds and so on have little or no compliance with the construction regs. And 99.999% of the time there is no problem because no accident occurs. But when something goes wrong, anyone and everyone in positions of responsibility will be crucified at dawn.

Girl Geraldine · 11-12-2022 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119980322#Comment_119980322

Not necessarily.

But one thing is for sure, a "lad starting out" is not competent to either design or build a farm building.

"A lad who is handy" might be considered somewhat competent by the man on the street, depending on his skill, but competence is a different kettle of fish when you are being prosecuted by the HSA. No way in hell would such a handy man satisfy the bar for competence.

Take this crash barrier shed. Lets say he builds it and all goes fine. Winter comes, and a storm rips a sheet of cladding off and it blows out onto the road and goes through the windscreen of a car. The investigation will look at why it came off the shed, and will see that it is a new build but essentially cobbled together from scrap barriers. They will try to establish who built it and who designed it. The handyman could easily see a day or two in court and wouldn't stand a chance, and the farmer client would get a conviction and fine for not ensuring the competence of his designer, contractor and for failing to make the project supervisor appointments.

I have also seen a case where short set of access steps to a piece of plant on a building was poorly placed meaning if a person slipped off of it they could fall out over a parapet wall and to the ground. And sure enough that did happen, albeit a good few years later. The HSA became involved and went into the history of it, and long story short, they designer/PSDP was prosecuted for creating an unsafe design as they failed to spot the design flaw which allowed this to happen.

Look at all the HSA prosecutions - everyone, EVERYONE, pleads guilty. You cannot and will not win a case taken against you by the HSA.

cute geoge · 11-12-2022 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983776#Comment_119983776

Very soon there will have to be an engineer to oversee the filling of a pothole .Is raw bolting steel to the top of a mass concrete wall a whole plle different to raw bolting a rsj to concrete base ,the way all sheds are stood this present day.

Pity the regulators did not do there job back in day in the regulating of banks and mica quarries!!!

Girl Geraldine · 11-12-2022 4:50pm

Bolting steel column plate to the top of a wall, well in principle it is the same as bolting to a concrete base, but in practice it makes a lot of difference. Thing is a base is a lot thicker and wider than a wall, so usually it is over engineered for what it has to do, even when built casually. And the base plate can be as wide as you want, but typically will be a little wider than the digger bucket that dug the hole

But a wall is much thinner, so is inherently weaker than a big wide lump of a base, and also then your base plate can only be as wide as the wall, meaning the pullout forces on the bolts are far, far greater because your lever arm is far shorter. And at mid way up a long, there is far more bending "force" in the wall/column assembly in reponse to wind and impacts, than down at ground level. This type of joint will be a massive weak point. Go look at some commercial portal frame buildings and see how often you see this detail - you'll be a while looking to see it, because no properly designed portal frame building will have it.

In theory you could do it, and engineer it so that it'll work - beefed up wall section into a thicker section with more reinforcement just under the column, essentially a concrete lower column. But the added complexity, time spent to design and do it properly, would work out far more expensive than the extra 2-3m of steel column. Add into the mix the reality that re-bar fixers are notoriously undependeable usually and don't do proper laps, or will just lob in whatever bars they have to hand, rather than what is supposed to be going into the reinforcement as designed.

Also, a rawlbolt is never suitable for bolting down 6-8m high columns.

As the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You see this is actually it here..... you have "handy local lads" that get notions that seem to make sense. But they only think it's a good idea because they don't actually know know enough about it to realise that what they are doing is actually very poor practice structurally, and potentially extremely dangerous if it can't take the loads expected. They, and their clients, do not realise that they are dicing with their lives and the lives of others. Blissfully unaware.

kevthegaff · 11-12-2022 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983844#Comment_119983844

Where I'm rawbolting to top of the wall, it will be backfilled to the wall so ud imagine the wall won't be moving

Pinsnbushings · 11-12-2022 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983953#Comment_119983953

I've actually just built a grant spec shed where the back 5 pillars are bolted to the top of the tank wall because there is such a fall on the site the outside of the wall is in fresh air..it's a 400mm thick wall, and that's sitting on the 225mm floor but the bit under the wall is 300 -350mm thick, a raft foundation essentially..Then a 200mm infill wall is poured between them pillars, supposed to be grant spec anyway, the amount of steel in the tank wall seemed lunacy at the time but with what your saying I'm glad it is in it now..

Tonynewholland · 11-12-2022 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983819#Comment_119983819

It's not illegal for a farmer or anyone else to build a shed themselves. Ireland has no register for who is qualified to build or not. Even the state themselves have been the victim of substandard building.

amacca · 11-12-2022 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983844#Comment_119983844

Indeed

Isn't that the problem with so many walks of life now

Good loser · 12-12-2022 12:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983844#Comment_119983844

That's commonsense. What Geraldine related above is a case of bureaucracy gone mad. Regulation overreach. Pity more of the H & S prosecutions are not contested. The regulations quoted by G might be in accordance with the regs but the regs are serious overkill.

Presumably the theory of these prosecutions is that they will scare the daylights out of anyone hearing about them. But what about everyone else? also it's a very inefficient way of advancing H & S. The costs/personnel involved in even small jobs would double/treble the costs in construction. Who would pay for that. These things might be a significant factor in pushing up the cost of housing.

Bass Reeves · 13-12-2022 4:38pm

There is department regulations and specifications for farm buildings. If you adhere to them there is no need for paying through the nose for engineers or so called professionals.

Would I bolt an RSJ to the top of a mass concrete wall build years ago that was required for structural support. No I would not. When that young lad starting off approached @DJ98 I suspect that DJ was a bit dubious that is why he came onto this forum.

Some lads here have a lot of experience building sheds. While the H&S crowd will throw the book at any incident the case @Girl Geraldine was against a large company that shod have had the processes in place. Nobody digs next to a utility pole who has any cop on or experience.

But idiots rushing or inexperienced contractors do stupid things digging up communication cables, water pipes and worse still electrical cables.

In the case GG quoted above the H&S were probably really pissed by a company that should have known better

But using that case to scare monger across all construction is a bit dubious.

kevthegaff · 13-12-2022 5:33pm

Bought shed 8 inch rsjs 32ft wide onto existing shed, 95ft 6 bays long. Timbers, painted sheeting, skylight in each bay, all plates and bolts included. Few hundred short of 10k exc vat

kevthegaff · 13-12-2022 5:35pm

We have a shed here bolted on with plates and then another rsj welded upright onto of the horizontal piece. A guy was telling me better job to.bolt rsj to pillar and then bolt upright same way again so 3 rsjs parallel. What ye think

clonagh · 13-12-2022 6:44pm

Anyone know any companies that do the round roof hay sheds in the midlands area? Don't see much online. Thanks.

Tonynewholland · 13-12-2022 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119992008#Comment_119992008

I've seen a good few builders bolting on to 11" walls nowadays. No upright steel on the low side of a shed. 4 16/18mm through bolts holding the RSJ onto the top of the wall. Can't see it failing if done right.

DJ98 · 13-12-2022 8:48pm

https://www.donedeal.ie/farmsheds-for-sale/rsj-kit-20x33/32616627

Would that be a reasonable price to pay for steel for a shed that size? Wouldn't require as much here as would be joining onto existing shed. What could you expect to pay then for sheeting , timber and concrete and any other bits and pieces that may be required?