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Cost of shed

  • 08-12-2022 12:50am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭


    Looking to construct a simple lean to shed here just for storage purposes (meal and tools and a couple of small trailers) , 2 spans so 30 ft long and 16 ft wide. Had a local guy look at it this week who's only new into this game but what he suggested to keep costs down was to bolt pillars onto top of shuttered walls so saving on over half the amount of steel as opposed to full length rsjs and to also make the rafters out of crash barriers welded together. Any pros/cons to his suggestions? He is to come back with a price in the next week but anyone got a rough idea as to what a shed like this would cost?



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,447 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I'd be a bit wary of doing that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭DJ98




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    I wouldn't like the sound of crash barriers welded together for the roof. The risk of welds falling and the roof collapsing would be a concern.

    Are any of the shuttered walls already there. You're only going to save on 6 rsjs max. I don't know how much 1 is but your talking savings of maybe a couple of hundred in the shed.

    I'd price getting the job done without cost saving measures too. That way you'll see exactly how much your saving. It may not be that much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,447 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    For basically the same reasons J.O gave above

    Crash barriers are also designed for one thing. I don't know whether they'd be sound to use in the roof. An engineer might be able to give a better opinion

    Plus the fact that your man is only starting out.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Timber prices have dropped a bit as Sweeden can’t sell to Russia. 6x3 should be a bit cheaper soon. What would you be saving by bolting pillars to walls? One tip of a loader bucket and shed could be down around you.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭amacca


    Agree completely... stand them in the ground instead of introducing a structural weakness/point of failure


    Yer man sounds like a mullocker....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    I doubt you'd save anything bolting columns to walls, where the column would be would still have to be filed with concrete and rebar.

    As for the crash barriers, unless your man is fierce tidy it'll look gunthered together and with the price of steel I wouldn't think there is a huge saving either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    16' isn't much of a span and I wouldn't be worried about the strength but unless you have them for free is it worth the hassle. How high on top of the walls will the pillars be. Might be easier to go higher with the wall if it's the low side and use no pillars



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Pinsnbushings


    Get the job done right, you'll be looking at it the rest of your life, look at the sheds blown down in recent years with wind, not worth the tiny savings you'd make with them measures.

    A timber purlin is about 38 euro if I remember rightly, steel purlin cheaper again I think, the last time I looked at crash barriers they weren't a whole lot cheaper, who's paying for the time welding them then?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,427 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath


    Put in the floor slab, bolt the uprights to it, then use RSJs as the rafters, short cuts in the structure of the building will only end in disaster, wind loads, snow loads or a tip from a machine could level it.

    If you want to save money look at the sheeting. Maybe don't but any concrete walls around the shed, maybe use blocks and building them yourself or look to see if you could get second hand cladding or "seconds" insulated cladding. If you wish to go with concrete walls maybe look at "second wall panels" from a concrete supplier



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭Limestone Cowboy


    I'd be more inclined to put in a footing for your wall and bolt the uprights to that. Let your floor run in over the footing then after. I've seen a few places where there was water making its way through the joint between the floor and wall when it's not stepped.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,470 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    What width is your shuttered wall and what width of a pad is he proposing to put onto it for the stanchions? How tall will the stanchions be? Stanchions are bolted to the ground all the time with no ill effect, so it might be possible to bolt on top of the shuttered wall. The problem you might have is that there is insufficient concrete breadth around the pad for a stable base. So in my opinion, it really depends as to whether it is feasible or not to bolt to top of the shuttered wall, although the likelihood of the shuttering being sufficiently thick to accommodate the stanchion is low.

    Are you starting from ground level or is this backing onto your silo? If you are starting from ground level full height stanchions and concrete wall panels are probably the cheapest solution. If there is to be no sidewards pressure on the walls then you can buy cheap panels (cheaper than the agri ones). I've seen them advertised in the back of the farming papers - sufficient for a wall alternative, but not for load bearing. Another thing you could do is sheet it to the ground.

    Not sure what you'd save by using the crash barriers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 ScottL


    If you want you can have a look at a similar sized timber frame option I posted over on

    Lean-To Shed (Traditional Framing - Douglas Fir) | The Farming Forum



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,447 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I often wondered about she kit sheds that are bolted to a slab.


    Surely if building from scratch, you'd always prefer to go with the girder into the ground (in concrete of course)? No? Or would lads ever put up a slab with the intention of bolting the shed onto it? I mean for a permanent job that you know you're not going to be dismantling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,680 ✭✭✭White Clover




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,447 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Reminds me of a 100-year old "barn" I saw in California a few years back. Although it was at least 60'x60' and probably over 20' high. In redwood country in the mountains. All massive beams and planks. Fully enclosed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,470 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    If done right they should be fine. 2-post car lifts are just bolted into the concrete and they would have a bit of tension on them. You wouldn't just bolt it to a 4" slab - it would need to be sufficiently deep to withstand the expected forces.

    It can be done in a similar manner to this video @10:30 - although I'd probably have galvanised it and if the cones were turned upside down it would further prevent pullout. It takes a lot of force to strip a nut from thread so would be sufficiently strong:



    I think @GERRY6420 used base plates for his slatted shed, but I think the floor level was above - couldn't see from video if they were bolted to the base plates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,470 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Seen that previously over the TFF. Credit to you - it's a very well built shed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,447 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Would a car life not just have fairly static and predictable loads against it though. At some stage someone is probably bump up against a girder or push dung against it when cleaning out a shed etc. Or even a big gust of wind catching the roof



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    There'd be a lot of movement on a car lift with all the pushing and pulling going on at times and a heavy jeep above your head. I'd say the weak point of bolting into concrete would be the weld on the base plate and not the bolts if done right



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,047 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    Most industrial buildings are bolted to the ground, foundation pads are put in place with Rag Bolts in place to hold the base plates, good 9x3 timbers would span 16ft for trusses



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Mr..


    Im considering putting a lean to off a shed and met the man that did the concrete of last shed, he reckons u could bolt the gurders to top of wall but it would want to be a 10 inch thick wall



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,470 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    I'd probably have galvanised it and if the cones were turned upside down it would further prevent pullout. 

    Looks like I've misunderstood how this works. The cone is a removeable liner and allows for lateral movement when lining up the stanchion or whatever. Once removed the void can then be filled up.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    I have hundreds of sheds done where they are bolted to the slab and i've yet to see any of them fall!

    As long as they are done right of course, standard procedure is to shim up the highest column half inch and shim everything else up level, you're then left with a void under the baseplates where you should shutter and grout them.

    Them cones are left in the hold down assembly so you can shift the bolts in the holes to allow the baseplate to fit over them, same procedure with shimming them up and grouting underneath them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭farawaygrass


    When putting up the uprights, is it better to bolt them to a concrete base or dig a hole and set them in concrete?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭amacca


    It's handier bolting them and you use a bit less steel


    I don't know if it's true but I always do cattle sheds by standing them.in a hole and concreting in.....it feels stronger to me.


    I put up a workshop and a smaller storage shed by putting in pads and bolting then pouring floor and iys a sturdy job too in fairness....just don't like yhe idea of driving in with a loader to pick up dung and shoving at ground level where girders attached.....not that they have to be exposed or should be .....


    Would be interested to see what others think.....the point at which the bolts fail is well beyond the kind of pressure/force/stress/strain/torsion etc you would put on by taking a run at them with a loader in fairness...then it's how strong is the concrete, how strong is the steel


    I suppose I should be more worried about poor quality steel corroding in the **** and piss.....we have an older shed put up with sections of old rail....fabulous stuff...its well over a hundred years old and barely a dusting of corrosion in the worst of conditions


    A more recent one with rsjs and paint and a slightly worrying deepish layer of corrosion on the surface...made of shite in comparison to the old rails


    You can still see old gates made in that wrought iron style on old farms with almost no corrosion too.....a rusty colour but not depth to the rust....they really don't make them like that anymore (commonly anyway)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭mayota




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,470 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    What depth slab do you bolt onto, or do you deepen it where the stanchions are to be located.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,067 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    I'm doing a lean too, gona go up and over old roof and wer doing a wall at other side with steel reinforcing. Gona bolt rsj to top of this wall.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Dunedin


    Bolt to slab is perfect job for a lean too/ machinery shed type.

    for cattle shed my preference would be pad for each pillar.

    Some lads set a short bit of girder in the pad well below top of foundation, bolt upright to that girder and then concrete all in to top of foundation.

    everyone will have their own way and I’ve yet to see any shed fall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Absolute messing. And dangerous messing at that.

    The shed structure of the shed ought to be designed by an engineer, or at least specified by a supplier of a portal frame shed that was actually properly designed day one. Not a cowboy who is going to guess the design by eye and cobble it all together from scraps of old crash barriers.

    Bolting the columns to the tops of the walls would be useless, unless the bolts have serious embeddment down into the wall and are continuous with the reinforcement, which would need to be beefed up under that section of the wall.

    From the sounds of your man, I'd say the wind would lift it up off the walls no bother.

    What people need to realise, is it a building job and it is all well and good McIvoring things togther on the cheap, but if something goes wrong and there is an accident, the HSA will absolutely crucify you and everyone else invoved in the building. The HSA are ruthless when it comes to enforcing safety in the construction sector. I as state agencies go, they are second only to Revenue when it comes to ruthlessness.

    They do not take any prisoners. They will do you for not having appointed PSDP/PSCS, for not having a appointed competent designer and contractor, for not notifying HSA of the project, and do you for not having CE marked structural steelwork. And anything else they can find when they come to investigate an incident.

    Engage in yeehaw building work at your peril.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    Competent designer means what. Have you seen the amount of bad building work done everywhere in Ireland with the last 20 years overseen by professional people who are now claiming it has nothing to do with them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Whatabouterying it away like that won't do much good for you if you're up in front of a judge over an accident.

    In this case, competent would mean either a structural engineer with experience of doing agri or portal frame structures, or an experienced farm building supplier/erector who is doing a system/modular buildings that were designed by such an engineer.

    If you are building something on your farm, it is your responsibility to ensure that you stay on the right side of the Construction Regulations. As I said, the HSA take no prisoners. They will nail everyone to the wall if they have to come out to an accident.

    Trust me, I have seen them in action. They are not a forgiving bunch at all. Like I say, they are on a par with Revenue. They don't just look at the part of the job that caused the accident - they go through the whole job top to bottom and everyone gets their penance for anything not in order, even if it had nothing to do with the incident.

    From what I have read on this forum of farm building construction, HSA would have a field day on any of them. I have read all sort of mad sh!t that farmers were DIYing at.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Could you say what happened , when you have seen them in action ? What was wrong and how did they enforce it ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭DJ98


    So have decided we will not go with the cost saving measures and do it once and do it right. So what sort of money can I expect to spend, just on steel for shed, sheeting, timbers and erection of shed. Have a neighbour who will do all digging out and concrete work.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    Your of the opinion that farmers are incapable of building a shed themselves safely or at least should have an engineer to supervise if they do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Not necessarily incapable - it's more those days are gone/going. People are now quick to issue claims, Insurance companies are going to find any reason not to pay out. A competent designer will have the cover to deal with these claims. Any design they do will have avoiding claims in mind. The previous poster is correct about HSA. Like the tax man, I wouldn't want to give them an excuse to knock on my door.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    Even if you hire a builder in you're still liable if there is an accident on your farm. A lot farmers still doing the building work themselves for grant jobs. Myself included



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Suckler


    An accident is different to failure of a design. You're playing the 'whataboutery' game as if this is some 'anti farmer' stance. It isn't, the world has changed and the OP's local lads suggestion is a recipe for disaster. What's the cost of doing it right V the cost of losing the farm over cutting corners?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 633 ✭✭✭Silverdream


    You could use 16ft 9X3 timbers for the purlins if you built a back wall for the leanto. That way you could put in the 9X3s every 6ft. No steel needed at all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭The Nutty M




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Reggie on here put a handy shed a while back with crash barriers ,photos and all .It looked a mighty job .I do not know how to put up a link to him ,someone might help



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    The case where I say the HSA in action, I won't give too much detail as I don't want to identify the people or the company. It was a simple enough job, nothing major and part of it involved laying a few pipes along the inside of the ditch. During the work, the dig went past a utility pole. Unfortunately, because of the close dig the pole came loose and fell, striking a worker and leaving him with profoundly life changing injuries.

    The incident was reported to the HSA, who came to the site to investigate within the same afternoon, and interviewed a number of people. One wiley lad remembered accident training advice and said they would co-operate but would not answer anything until he had legal advice. Others were interviewed and gave up all information. I think part of the HSA strategy is to arrive very promptly, before the dust has settled and while people are still in shock so that they will give up information, even incriminating information.

    The contractor was done for not having prepared a proper Safety Plan and not having risk assessed the activity. They were also done failing to ensure that a trained banksman was on site. They were also done for failing to have valid tickets on lifting gear on the digger, even though that had nothing to do with the accident. The site owner was prosecuted for failing to appoint Project Supervisors, and for failing to ensure that the work was carried out in compliance with the Construction Regulations. It was a big client with huge reach, well used to supervising civil engineering and asset maintenance work, but they slipped up here and because it was only a small bit of a job, they neglected to make the PS appointments. I used to work for the same organisation at the time, but in a different area. There were fines well into the hundreds of thousands on the contractor and the client, and 4 people ended up with criminal convictions personally against them.

    Whats more in this sort of thing, they are not civil cases, they are criminal cases, prosecuted by the HSA. And they don't just prosecute the company involved, they personally prosecute the individuals, meaning they are left with a criminal record. The civil cases then for the insurance and the payouts, that is another day's work in court. I don't know the outcome of the civil cases here, but presumably damages into the hundreds of thousands also.

    Now, relatively simple jobs like this go on all day every day across the country without compliance with the Construction Regs. I would bet that an majority of farm construction jobs like sheds and so on have little or no compliance with the construction regs. And 99.999% of the time there is no problem because no accident occurs. But when something goes wrong, anyone and everyone in positions of responsibility will be crucified at dawn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Not necessarily.

    But one thing is for sure, a "lad starting out" is not competent to either design or build a farm building.

    "A lad who is handy" might be considered somewhat competent by the man on the street, depending on his skill, but competence is a different kettle of fish when you are being prosecuted by the HSA. No way in hell would such a handy man satisfy the bar for competence.

    Take this crash barrier shed. Lets say he builds it and all goes fine. Winter comes, and a storm rips a sheet of cladding off and it blows out onto the road and goes through the windscreen of a car. The investigation will look at why it came off the shed, and will see that it is a new build but essentially cobbled together from scrap barriers. They will try to establish who built it and who designed it. The handyman could easily see a day or two in court and wouldn't stand a chance, and the farmer client would get a conviction and fine for not ensuring the competence of his designer, contractor and for failing to make the project supervisor appointments.

    I have also seen a case where short set of access steps to a piece of plant on a building was poorly placed meaning if a person slipped off of it they could fall out over a parapet wall and to the ground. And sure enough that did happen, albeit a good few years later. The HSA became involved and went into the history of it, and long story short, they designer/PSDP was prosecuted for creating an unsafe design as they failed to spot the design flaw which allowed this to happen.

    Look at all the HSA prosecutions - everyone, EVERYONE, pleads guilty. You cannot and will not win a case taken against you by the HSA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Very soon there will have to be an engineer to oversee the filling of a pothole .Is raw bolting steel to the top of a mass concrete wall a whole plle different to raw bolting a rsj to concrete base ,the way all sheds are stood this present day.

    Pity the regulators did not do there job back in day in the regulating of banks and mica quarries!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Bolting steel column plate to the top of a wall, well in principle it is the same as bolting to a concrete base, but in practice it makes a lot of difference. Thing is a base is a lot thicker and wider than a wall, so usually it is over engineered for what it has to do, even when built casually. And the base plate can be as wide as you want, but typically will be a little wider than the digger bucket that dug the hole

    But a wall is much thinner, so is inherently weaker than a big wide lump of a base, and also then your base plate can only be as wide as the wall, meaning the pullout forces on the bolts are far, far greater because your lever arm is far shorter. And at mid way up a long, there is far more bending "force" in the wall/column assembly in reponse to wind and impacts, than down at ground level. This type of joint will be a massive weak point. Go look at some commercial portal frame buildings and see how often you see this detail - you'll be a while looking to see it, because no properly designed portal frame building will have it.

    In theory you could do it, and engineer it so that it'll work - beefed up wall section into a thicker section with more reinforcement just under the column, essentially a concrete lower column. But the added complexity, time spent to design and do it properly, would work out far more expensive than the extra 2-3m of steel column. Add into the mix the reality that re-bar fixers are notoriously undependeable usually and don't do proper laps, or will just lob in whatever bars they have to hand, rather than what is supposed to be going into the reinforcement as designed.

    Also, a rawlbolt is never suitable for bolting down 6-8m high columns.

    As the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You see this is actually it here..... you have "handy local lads" that get notions that seem to make sense. But they only think it's a good idea because they don't actually know know enough about it to realise that what they are doing is actually very poor practice structurally, and potentially extremely dangerous if it can't take the loads expected. They, and their clients, do not realise that they are dicing with their lives and the lives of others. Blissfully unaware.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,067 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    Where I'm rawbolting to top of the wall, it will be backfilled to the wall so ud imagine the wall won't be moving



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Pinsnbushings


    I've actually just built a grant spec shed where the back 5 pillars are bolted to the top of the tank wall because there is such a fall on the site the outside of the wall is in fresh air..it's a 400mm thick wall, and that's sitting on the 225mm floor but the bit under the wall is 300 -350mm thick, a raft foundation essentially..Then a 200mm infill wall is poured between them pillars, supposed to be grant spec anyway, the amount of steel in the tank wall seemed lunacy at the time but with what your saying I'm glad it is in it now..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    It's not illegal for a farmer or anyone else to build a shed themselves. Ireland has no register for who is qualified to build or not. Even the state themselves have been the victim of substandard building.



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