Little changes we can make to normalise cycling and encourage its uptake

b v

Mine would be:

Encouragement and promotion from an early age and normalising it. There’s no real reason mommy has to drive a tank with a 3 piece suite to drop Fintan and Sadbh to school. What’s wrong with a cargo bike with child seats? Older kids (ie, 9 and older) could cycle themselves. Growing up my cousin, my sister and I were walked to school by my mam or aunty and we walked ourselves as we got older, when I was 9 I started cycling myself. I’m 31 now.

Allow helmet cam footage to be more expeditiously used to call bad driving to task.

A reasonable expectation that your bike will still be there and not vandalised when you return.

Enforce misuse of bus lanes and bike lanes unmercifully - zero tolerance.

Encourage large supermarkets who don’t already do so to provide bike parking suitable for cargo bikes. My local has a HUGE car park with no bike parking whatsoever. A single car space could probably fit space for 5 or so cargo bikes.

Abolish VAT on cycling gear.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058271873/little-changes-we-can-make-to-normalise-cycling-and-encourage-its-uptake

Very broad assumption on the "mommies" in their tanks. Main reason why its hard to get families out of cars and on bikes is convenience really!

I'm not a "mommie with a tank" just a dad with Skoda! But I am tasked with the creche and school drop off's and my wife does the pick up's for our 3 kiddies. It would be simple not practical to get my toddler to creche, 2 older kids to school and then actually get myself to the office at a reasonable hour all on cargo bike! when the kids get older and if a proper cycle lane was implemented then yes they would cycle but until such point its the car for us...

Qrt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877063#Comment_119877063

As well as that, it’s very difficult to even get a crèche nearby these days.

we really need to bring back school cycling lessons, I was meant to do mine “next year” when I was in fifth class but the recession came and they were all cancelled.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877095#Comment_119877095

As long as the school cycling lessons don’t tell the children to “keep in off the road”, “cycle single file”, “don’t block the road”.

Because we all know that’ll probably happen.

the_amazing_raisin

Better infrastructure, proper separated cycle lanes all the way from the suburbs to city centers.

There's a functional difference between roads for cars and streets for bikes and pedestrians, and this should be reflected in their design. Shared infrastructure should be avoided and where it exists it should be pedestrian focused, not car or bike focused

It works out better for cars as well since they don't have to be as aware of pedestrians and cyclists

Secure bicycle parks in the city, you'll probably have to pay for them but that's the cost of proper security

Change planning laws to ensure offices and businesses provide showers and changing rooms, as well as drying facilities for cycling gear

Proper cleaning of cycle lanes, I was walking down grand canal recently and the cycle path was a swamp of fallen leaves which made it an ice rink for bikes

But.... there's also got to be some more responsibility for cyclists

Helmet laws, I know there was some study in Australia that showed bike use went down with helmet laws, but I would propose that people who don't wear helmets shouldn't be on bikes. I think it's something that needs to be normalised from a young age so people just automatically wear helmets

And on the spot fines for cyclists behaving badly. I know it's a minority of cyclists, but it happens. I've seen cyclists skipping lights, zipping in and out of moving cars without any signalling and whizzing along crowded footpaths

Cyclists who do that are a danger to others as well as themselves, and there needs to be a deterrent for that behaviour

bk

The only way to increase cycling is to build high quality, Dutch style, fully segregated bike lanes.

Build it and they will come. I’ve seen it myself over the last year with the new bike lane on Griffith Avenue. While far from a perfect Dutch style bike lane, it is still a big improvement and what was there before .

The result? Massive, very noticeable increase in kids cycling to school, parents with cargo bikes, parents cycling with younger kids, etc. Big success IMO and it isn’t even complete yet and it is only an ok example of a bike lane.

Also lots of parents walk their kids to school too on this road. Imagine that, build a nice high quality, wide footpath and bike lane and lots of people use it!

Very simply, give people good, safe infrastructure and they will happily use it.

tayto lover

I think that cycling in towns/cities can be very dangerous. Everyone seems to be rushing somewhere. If there were proper routes that were safe i'd go back to cycling myself even at senior citizen age because i used to enjoy it. Now I find that the roads are full of people trying to prove that either the cyclist or the motorist is in the wrong and I don't want to get into that so i'll continue walking.

growleaves

Agree re segregated lanes. Make cycling less dangerous by separating it.

Also punish rogue/ bad cyclists who run red lights. This shows people that bicycles are considered serious road vehicles, not toys, and protects pedestrians.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877063#Comment_119877063

How many parents are doing as you describe in an unnecessarily large car?

How many people doing so could easily use a mixture of walking / cycling / public transport? Not for everyone, I know but those options are definitely under-utilised.

Larbre34

Stop the deliberate Government policy which creates the adversarial environment between motorists and cyclists, including the catastrophic DMURS policy which has reduced shared space and created conflict points.

I cycled 9kms to and from school 30 years ago and for 6 years never had a serious incident because there was space to take avoiding action.

I drove through a good chunk of south Dublin City last night for the first time in a while and was horrified at the plastic bollard pollution which has taken over in places like Ranelagh, Kilmainham, Islandbridge and the Phoenix Park. They trap cyclists, reduced visibility for all, visually pollute historic areas and because they aren't maintained right, end up as filthy broken hazards - mainly for cyclists and pushchairs!

The way to encourage cycling is to improve cycle parking, lockers and shower facilities at destination work places and schools, to introduce cycle education for all young people in early school.

The other even more important step is to prioritise a passenger led revolution in public transport to make use of a bike to meet a bus, tram or train an efficient, frequent and safe option for all from 12 to 92.

The OP talks about helmet cams. This presupposes that the wearing of cycle helmets is widespread enough to make it viable. It isn't. Make helmets as compulsory as seat belts in cars and we'll talk about helmet cams.

And he talks about zero tolerance for bus and cycle lane violations. Interesting....

This is an extract of a montage of a cycleway scheme proposal for a number of roads approaching Dun Laoghaire town, which was approved by DLR Council last night.

This particular location is Mounttown Road Lower. The proposal is for a lovely two-way segregated cycle route, but the corridor limitations mean that now the traffic lanes that remain will scarcely be wide enough for two buses or HGVs to pass without losing mirrors or paint and the householders of these 90 odd year old houses along the route, will now find accessing and leaving their own driveways almost impossible due to reduced space and lane segregation and the possibility for visitor and carer parking close to the very much older residents that live there, is removed.

If you want to encourage cycling, stop holding it up as the cause of so much misery and negativity in communities.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878204#Comment_119878204

Plastic bollards aren’t for cyclists. They’re for the drivers that won’t obey traffic markings.

I’m biting my lip to not respond to the helmet suggestions, which are well covered on the megathread.

bk

Labre34, I haven't looked at the details of the plan, but the above cycle path in Dun Laoghaire, looks like a high quality cycle path that would actually greatly increase cycling!

I find it very sad that a thread about encouraging cycling is already fully with anti cycling suggestions which have been proven time and time again to actually discourage cycling!

It really isn't difficult, Amsterdam is a world leader in cycling, with 40% of residents cycling every day and it is a very similar city to others in terms of size, density and climate, so a great example for us to follow.

Enforced helmets and nonsense like that. Go to Amsterdam and you won't see almost any helmets, no one needs one. It isn't needed when you have high quality infrastructure that safely separates you from cars and buses.

I can't say for certain, but that Dun Laoghaire plan above actually looks like the type of cycling infrastructure they have in Amsterdam, the type of infrastructure which actually makes cycling safer and encourages more people to cycle.

bk

“Plastic bollards aren’t for cyclists. They’re for the drivers that won’t obey traffic markings.”

Exactly, Griffith Avenue is a great example of this. It might surprise many people, but there has been a cycle path on parts of Griffith Avenue for more then 20 years, but you wouldn’t know it from all the cars parking on the cycle path, thus making it completely unusable.

Only by initially putting the stupid plastic bollards in place and now a concrete step/barrier, do we actually have a useable bike path that cars don’t park in.

A bike path now used by children, parents, families, commuters, etc. every day.

billyhead

Mandatory helmet wearing is actually a deterrent to cycling. Leave it as it is i.e. at the cyclists discretion.

noelfirl

I hadn't cycled in the better part of two decades until moving back to Dublin from London at the start of this year. I can safely say the plastic bollard "pollution" was fairly key in allowing me to feel I could take it back up and sustain it to the level I've been able to. Can't imagine I'm the only one.

More often than not I'd reckon the problem many drivers have with the "pollution" is that it forces them to slow down, mind their lane and deters them from abruptly swinging in front of cyclists at junctions as they otherwise see fit to do. The city has been aggressively aligned for the past 70 or more years towards facilitating as many cars as possible travelling as fast as possible through it, to the detriment of basically everyone else. Tough sh*t that approach is being reversed somewhat.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878188#Comment_119878188

I'd say the numbers unnecessarily doing it are not a high as you think. Unfortunately 99% of Irish towns and cities just do not have great/or any public transport or cycle infrastructure.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878851#Comment_119878851

Take a look at big towns like Swords or Santry or any town on the DART line and let me know.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878679#Comment_119878679

Congratulations.

But there is no justifying this mess.

Merely a sample.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879545#Comment_119879545

Okay, first off Santry and Swords aren't on the DART line 😉

And there's still a swarm of cars leaving Swords every morning to get to various destinations because the majority of people who live in Swords seem to work somewhere else

There's good bus connections into the city, but cycling to the city from Swords wouldn't be much fun because there's no decent cycle lanes that I know of

So I don't really get what you were going for with using Swords as an example

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878851#Comment_119878851

I beg to differ. The majority of urban car journeys are between 2 and 8 km in distance. I spend every day transporting myself and/or the kids to work/school or various activities and I am genuinely baffled why anyone would willingly sit in lines of traffic as I swan past unhindered. Sure, not everyone's situation means they can abandon the car but plenty could however they just can't seem to see past the perceived comforts and convenience of the car. I might take the car out once or twice every two weeks and even at that I often regret not opting for the bike when faced with another line of barely shifting traffic.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879633#Comment_119879633

One would assume the ugly plastic bollards will be in place until Irish motorists mature and learn there should be a fair and equitable sharing of road space with more efficient but also more vulnerable forms of traffic. So hopefully they will be gone some time this century.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879660#Comment_119879660

Who said that were on the DART line? No one here suggested they were.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879660#Comment_119879660

And that’s exactly what this thread is about…. Encouraging cycling, creating infrastructure and changing that.

There's good bus connections into the city, but cycling to the city from Swords wouldn't be much fun because there's no decent cycle lanes that I know of

callaway92

Whatever is done, it needs to start for people at a very young age. People in their 20s upwards just won’t change, no matter what happens

Ugh, eco-ablism. Yuck.

mickdw

My vote would be for compulsory identification/registration for all cyclists.

We cannot continue to grow cycle numbers and still have the situation where the some random person on a bike can come along in traffic and damage a car or cause an accident and simply cycle away from the scene unidentified.

I've seen terrible road manners from cyclists and when it's goes tits up and they have a near mis with a car, the usual response is to kick the car and abuse the driver.

I drive but cycle for exercise and would have no issue at all with having to go online, provide a few simple details and obtain a unique reg which could then be displayed while cycling.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878498#Comment_119878498

Far more cyclists don’t obey traffic markings or the road traffic act in general. Traffic lights and their adherence to stopping for them when legally necessary is pathetic.

you won’t normalise and encourage cycling in this climate..The average number of wet days (days with more than 1mm of rain) ranges from about 150 days a year along the east and south-east coasts, to about 225 days a year in parts of the west.

We don’t live in a Mediterranean climate… if we did this debate would have some credibility but when you don’t have appropriate weather most of the year, enough safe cycling infrastructure and or the ability in many cases to add it to existing roadways…..

So an uptake in cycling ? Not on any major scale and the cost of procuring cars is about to drop by 2.5-3.0 %

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879803#Comment_119879803

How often have you reported terrible road manners by drivers to Gardai?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879807#Comment_119879807

What percentage of drivers break speed limits? How often do you break the speed limit yourself?

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879807#Comment_119879807

The weather in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Brussels, northern Germany is essentially the same as here …. And look at their cycling numbers.

We don’t live in a Mediterranean climate… if we did this debate would have some credibility but when you don’t have appropriate weather most of the year, enough safe cycling infrastructure and or the ability in many cases to add it to existing roadways…..

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879813#Comment_119879813

What percentage? 100% break them at some point.

But the interesting thing is, that it only makes a difference some of the time.

(20 mph = 32.2 km/h)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/20mph-speed-limits-have-little-impact-on-road-safety-study-42147717.html

https://studyfinds.org/speed-limits-safety-20-mph-cities/

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879992#Comment_119879992

So law breaking doesn’t matter when it comes to drivers, got it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878679#Comment_119878679

yep, bollards are required given the total lack of enforcement of road traffic law.

when the council painted the cycle lane on griffith avenue, it made zero difference to parking. people just parked on it because many/most/whatever motorists think public space is theirs to take.

someone mentioned the weather. the average rainfall in dublin is between 650 and 700mm per year. in amsterdam, it's over 850mm IIRC.

magicbastarder

in terms of small changes that could be made, ban car parking on the road within 300m of a school (with obvious exceptions granted).

it's not so much to prevent kids being dropped to school, but to stop the immediate area around the school itself from becoming a danger zone. there's a school 200m from me and you need your wits about you passing it in the morning and the afternoon at dropoff/pickup time.

noelfirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879633#Comment_119879633

Congratulations! With the exception of Chesterfield Avenue, that selection covers most of my commute (Chapelizod to Belfield). All of those interventions are justified for the reasons I already mentioned. Fingers crossed there are some more to come soon along the canal section at several junctions. Could they be nicer? Oh yes, almost certainly, but goodness knows how long that will take and how much interference from vested interests it would be subjected to.

bk

I will say that I'm not a fan of the visual clutter of bollards, but they are a temporary evil until we transition to less visually cluttered options.

Griffith Avenue is again an example of this. They initially put up bollards, but they only lasted a few months and have now been replaced by a concrete kerb, which seems to do the same job of keeping cars out of the bike lane, while looking far less intrusive, actually barely noticeable.

Not perfect though, as such concrete kerbs aren't great for narrow unidirectional bike lanes, as they trap the cyclist into the lane and make it more difficult and dangerous to overtake slower cyclists or other obstacles. They are better suited to wider two way cycle lanes.

Really we need to be building high quality, wide bi-directional cycle lanes where ever possible, like it was on Griffith Avenue, but wasn't done.

Here is a great example coming to Dun Laoghaire, looks great and really improves the look of the public realm:

bk

BTW Just watched the video for the new Dun Laoghaire cycle lanes and looks great overall, a proper high quality cycle lane. Well done to the planners who designed that.

Sigh, why can't we have the same planners here in DCC. You could have very easily built that same high quality bike lane on Griffith Avenue, without taking any extra space from the road, footpath or car parking and it would have looked better too.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879810#Comment_119879810

Never but when someone hits my car and drives off, I report them. Do you see my point now.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880761#Comment_119880761

No, I don't see your point. What's the point of building a huge administrative system that will fundamentally be a barrier to take-up of cycling, when you've confirmed that you're not going to use it? This is a solution looking for a problem to solve. Gardai don't have a problem with holding cyclists accountable. Motor insurers don't have a problem with dealing cyclists. As smarter countries around the world are working their asses off to encourage and in some cases, to directly incentive cycling, you want to create an administrative system that no country in the world had deemed necessary, except North Korea? A cynic might think the actual objective was to deter cycling.

magicbastarder

also - zero rate bikes for VAT purposes. more equitable than the BTW scheme (but still encourage employers to allow bikes to be bought as part salary sacrifice to help spread the cost to employee over the year).

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880987#Comment_119880987

I like the idea of abolishing VAT on bikes as I said it in my OP. However, what’s stopping shops from keeping prices the same and pocketing the VAT?

Imagine a bike costs €1,000 today. The same bike ex. vat should be €813. The cynic in me says some chains will keep charging €1,000 or up the price to €900, thus pocketing some or all of the savings.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880987#Comment_119880987

No justification for a VAT exemption for bikes and cycling gear. Zero rate on public transport only is fine. Bikes, like cars, and the clothes we chose to wear using them, are a personal luxury good.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881187#Comment_119881187

Cyclists will benefit society in the long run. Cleaner air, lower hospital occupancy, reduce strain on the HSE. Less fines from not meeting pollution targets.

More room on the roads for the handful of people for whom driving is the only option (disabled etc) and more room for those who insist on driving 200 metres down the road.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881187#Comment_119881187

we give grants to people to buy electric cars, to insulate their houses, etc.

would you argue that grants for EVs should be abolished because cars are luxury items?

i would argue that a bike can be a luxury item, but is not necessarily one. i would not consider a bicycle used for a commute to work to be a luxury item, no more than public transport to get to work would be a luxury good.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879807#Comment_119879807

One thing we can all do is stop spoofing and telling lies. So I'm going to knock this ^^ myth on the head.

There are more cyclists in Dublin than there are anywhere else in the country. And according to the stats & facts from people on the ground it's proven that cyclists are the safest & most aware road users in the capital.

According to Transdev Ireland (LUAS people) the number of Emergency Brake (EB) applications made by tram drivers can be a useful leading safety indicator as it can show there was potential for an unsafe condition to manifest. In 2020, there was a total of 614 EB applications, which is a substantial reduction from 938 in 2019 (figure 28). TDLR analysis indicates that 43% of these are due to technical issues with the tram or its operation, which can range from blockage of door leaves to faults with the tram control system. The analysis also indicates that 29% are attributable to road vehicles, 21% to pedestrians and 5.7% to cyclists. 

magicbastarder

to address an obvious comment on that; cyclists are outnumbered by motorists, so you would expect to see a higher figure for motorists.

however, the relative difference there is that motorists are five times more likely to cause an EB. but based on the canal cordon count (were we to use that as a basis on which to determing the actual ratio, motorists outnumber cyclists by a factor of approx 4 (based on the 2019 cordon count).

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880878#Comment_119880878

Are you abit slow. I'm not in the business of randomly reporting drivers or cyclists. If however a driver or cyclist causes damage or an accident or whatever, I need to be able to identify them to be sure they are held accountable. Presently, as I've personally experienced, dark wet rush hour streets of Dublin, a cyclist damages my mirror while I'm stopped and cycles off into the night.

So tell me, how do gardai hold the cyclist above accountable seeing as they are unidentified.

The system doesn't need to be complicated.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881471#Comment_119881471

The statistics do not prove that cyclists are the safest and most aware road users.

Statistics show that cars break more red lights, but from personal experience I observe that cyclists are far more likely to blast through a red light as a pedestrian is about to step out at a pedestrian crossing. I would love to see what the numbers would be like if you were to examine each breaking of the light and count actual near-collisions vs rolling through empty lights.

Cars going through empty red lights are less dangerous than cyclists going through lights where pedestrians are trying to cross. Cars mostly won't risk hitting a pedestrian because they don't want the hassle of killing someone. Just as cyclists don't want a bang off a tram so they steer clear of the Luas.

But many cyclists (correctly) figure pedestrians will get out of their way at the last gasp and there is insanely dangerous cycling in Dublin, especially in the city centre, which purely statistical presentations of the situation miss.

I had to literally jump off the road twice this year because of cyclists who think that because they are behind a machine that people on foot must yield to them. It is exactly the same mentality as a bad motorist hulked in their glass-and-metal box thinking they are invulnerable.

growleaves

^^There are qualitative differences between the actual, particular road traffic offences committed by motorists and cyclists that purely numeric statistical presentations do not capture fully.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881334#Comment_119881334

Fine, make basic models up to a price point VAT exempt, not your space-age, carbon-fibre weekend warrior machine costing a few grand.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882092#Comment_119882092

So no grants for Teslas? Only basic nissan leafs. Surely you’ll apply the same logic to cars.