Little changes we can make to normalise cycling and encourage its uptake

patrickbrophy18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886483#Comment_119886483

Don't worry. It's his MO. He did that to me several months ago. As far as he is concerned, car users are bad regardless.

I had a quick glance through many of your posts and completely agree with all of them. It's nice to see another poster who is in touch with reality and doesn't subscribe to the "car drivers bad" brigade.

Also, I second the arguement that many of the social distancing friendly traffic calming measures have made previously quick car journeys significantly longer. This in turn, increases their fuel consumption. At a time when fuel prices are going up, the last thing we should be doing is more traffic calming.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887238#Comment_119887238

Car journeys take too long because too many people want to take their cars on the road at the same time. Anyone with two functioning eyes can walk out their front door and see the evidence for themselves. Continuing facilitation of motorised traffic over more efficient modes will only lead us to an even worse outcome.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886589#Comment_119886589

If they're taking the lane, there's a reason.

If they're not using a cycle lane there's a reason.

Share the road, be patient, they'll only hold you up for a few seconds. They're more attuned to what's going on on the road, they can hear better, see better, they're usually fitter and have better reactions than your average motorist.

I'm a motorist by the way three vehicles, all with four wheels. However, I'm intelligent enough to know that the more cyclists we have, the easier we make it for them to cycle, the more room we give them and the less restrictions we put on them means emptier roads, less cars more room for people who have to drive.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886542#Comment_119886542

Seriously, 2km in fifteen minutes? You'd walk it in half the time. The problem isn't the very minor configuration change to the junction to stop people from getting killed. The problem is all the people who want to drive round with four empty seats for 2km journeys, complaining about there not being enough road space.

Cycle lanes aren't about encouraging you to cycle. It's about encouraging those older than you, younger than you, more frail and disabled than you, more female than you. The 'I'm all right Jack' thinking doesn't really work.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886602#Comment_119886602

Why do you think your journey is more important than anyone else's? We're all equal on the roads. The '40 kmph lycra bunch' have just as much right to use the road as you do. If you can't manage to overtake, maybe you need more driving lessons.

This will give you some idea why some cycle lanes are useless.

https://irishcycle.com/2015/11/05/images-25-reasons-why-cyclists-dont-use-cycle-lanes/

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886882#Comment_119886882

Thank you for the intelligent response. It's great to know people are willing to engage at a sensible level.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887537#Comment_119887537

You're welcome.

When people are willing to engage at sensible level that is actually inclusive of the needs of all road users, and not just cyclists, then I might be more bothered to engage. Until then...

Well I guess someday we can hope that discussion will actually happen on one of these threads. I won't hold my breath, though.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887442#Comment_119887442

As I said the start of the journey took up to fifteen mins and it now can take double that,what do you propose I do, walk the couple of km and somehow or other my car will then arrive to allow me to continue on. The issue isnt just me though, its access for emergency services too, as Loueze says the roads should be for the benefit of everyone and not just cyclists.

And why are you assuming cars are being driven around with four empty seats,do you have a back carrier on your bike and a saddle on the crossbar,why not,who do you think you are just looking after your own transport needs,taking up road space. Why dont you transport your family around on your bike instead of buying them separate bikes,that would be less bikes on the road and more room for emergency vehicles.

Seriously get on with your life, stop expecting other people to give a minority activity priority on the roads, stop blaming everyone from other drivers to Gardai for whatever failings you perceive they have,nobody least of all overworked Gardai care about your problems, they like everyone else can see the entitled middle aged male cycling behaviour and unless ownership of that behaviour is taken by cycling advocacy groups then sensible respectful mutual discussion will never take place.

You are a huge part of the problem Andrew and if you want to increase cycling numbers then your attitude must change.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884100#Comment_119884100

it's in a death spiral.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888061#Comment_119888061

As was said to Loueze,nobody is forcing you to read or post here.

If all you want is four wheels bad, two wheels good then dont open this thread.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888042#Comment_119888042

So where is this 2km journey that now takes you 30 minutes as a result of cycle lanes?

Emergency services have no issue with cycle lanes and indeed have used cycle lanes on occasion. It’s fascinating to see this sudden interest in access for emergency services though, from people who didn’t give a toss about how long those vehicles were stuck in ordinary traffic for years.

I’m assuming drivers are driving around with four empty seats because that’s what Dublin traffic analysis tells us- that 80% of cars are 80% empty, and these are the people wondering why there’s not enough room for them on the road.

As for your ‘minority activity’, more people cycle to work or college in Dublin than use DART, suburban rail and Luas combined. Twice as many bikes as cars pass through Leeson St Bridge in rush hour. This isn’t a minority niche, regardless of how desperately you want it to be.

The Trumpian tactic of blaming pollution on the one group of road users who don’t pollute is quite something.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888042#Comment_119888042

That's a mad post, the roads are for everyone? Motorways and some roads are unsuitable for cyclists and it's illegal for cyclists to use motorways, they're exclusively for motorised vehicles, and rightly so.... Cyclists never hold up emergency vehicles, cars, vans and trucks do, all the time, talk to your local emergency vehicle drivers and they'll school you. And for your information, women, girls, teenagers, elderly people and children cycle too and they don't take up space, they reduce space on the streets for people like me that on occasion needs to drive.

You need to get on with your life and stop expecting people to give you, entitled middle aged men priority on the streets. You need to take a sensible respectful, mutual approach when discussing street sharing.

You're part of the problem Robot22. The streets are not exclusively for middle aged men in expensive cars.

Yeah, I'm sure emergency vehicles have no added problems trying to manouver through traffic that is hemmed in on both sides by all those stupid plastic bollards now cluttering up the road spaces.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888320#Comment_119888320

Those bollards wouldn’t be necessary if drivers copped on.

brianc89

"the roads should be for the benefit of everyone and not just cyclists.".

Wow, just WOW.

In one sentence, the absolute arrogance and entitlement of car users is perfectly summed up.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886357#Comment_119886357

the irony is that many, many cyclists would be happy with 'normal' cycle lanes, if motorists respected them.

'shared space' for a significant minority of motorists is 'space i can park my car in'. and this is the reason for the bollards; it's because if space is provided for cyclists, it's often gobbled up.

i don't recall ever, whilst out driving, having an issue with a bicycle parked in the lane i am driving in, and blocking it. the converse is chronic. we provide cycling infrastructure, motorists park in the cycling infrastructure, and then many motorists complain about the sheer affrontery of cyclists and bollards, etc. etc.

the line 'when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression' springs to mind.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888320#Comment_119888320

The traffic would still be there blocking emergency vehicles regardless of the bollards.

The problem is the traffic not bollards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888509#Comment_119888509

As pointed out in one of the earliest posts on this thread, when bollards reduce road space to the point where traffic barely has enough room to pass each other, and is left with no room to pull into the side, then it's most definitely a bollard issue.

Remove your bias and apply a little common sense, please.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888639#Comment_119888639

And again, those bollards would not be necessary if drivers copped on.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888639#Comment_119888639

Personally I have witnessed numerous occasions of traffic manoeuvring out of the way of an oncoming emergency vehicles even on bollard festooned streets. It is not the issue some would like to make of it. I would love to see the ugly bollards gone myself. Unfortunately, Irish motorists can't be trusted.

The sheer arrogance of you asking for sensible and inclusive discussion without even realising the privileged position cars already claim on the roads is actually astounding.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888639#Comment_119888639

You're putting the chicken before the egg.

Without bollards traffic/drivers just filled the space that the bollards now keep free. There was so little space in fact you couldn't squeeze a bicycle through. Never mind emergency vehicles. So they installed bollards so cyclists can now fit. It's not bollards blocking anything. It's traffic.

What you're actually advocating for is have more and wider cycle lanes, and car free lanes. So emergency vehicles can use them easily.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888639#Comment_119888639

The bollards are there because of motorists not respecting mandatory cycle lanes. The solution is actually wider cycle lanes, which emergency vehicles can use to bypass the motorists blocking the road.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888639#Comment_119888639

Can you give us an example of a road which has seen bollards introduced and this is now creating an issue whereby "traffic barely has room to pass each otherr, and is left with no room to pull into the side"?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888509#Comment_119888509

The issue is the roads are too narrow to accomodate two way cycle lanes.

There is literally barely enough room for cars to pass each other.

Previously there was space for cars to pull over to let emergency vehicles pass but now that space is given over to a cycle lane.

Many of these cycle lanes are just a few hundred metres of bollards and you have to cycle on other roads to get to them and you are dumped off them back into traffic.

Again, if you cant share the road with cars maybe just dont cycle,if you arent confident on a bike you are a danger to yourself and others.

These two way cycle are in many areas, have a look at the plans someone else already posted in this thread for Dunlaoghaire,lookat the plans proposed for Salt Hill in Galway,look at what was proposed for Strand Road, Sandymount, I dont think that madness has been consigned to the bin yet.

There is a diversion on Strand Road now and the traffic is being diverted through Sandymount village, I cycled to that village yesterday, I was practically the only person on a bike for the whole forty minute cycle. The village was jammed with traffic,it was the same when I drove through it on sunday evening,this insanity has to stop.

And then those who are saying we have to cycle everywhere are the same hypocrites who flew to Egypt to talk about climate change, how many of those pontificating in the Dail use public transport to travel from their rural constituencies, how many city based TDS use public transport and bicycles to get to the Dail,........,lets get rid of all cars and drivers for TDs, wouldnt that set a good example.

Lets decide now that no TD is flying out of the country for Paddys day and any jaunt they want to take that day has to be done by bike. They can cycle in their home areas and promote tourism that way,see how that idea goes down.

magicbastarder

funny, you usually hear the emergency services complaining about badly parked cars hindering access, rather than bike lanes.

Seth Brundle

The issue is the roads are too narrow to accomodate two way cycle lanes.

There is literally barely enough room for cars to pass each other.

Previously there was space for cars to pull over to let emergency vehicles pass but now that space is given over to a cycle lane.

Where are these roads? Name one where cars have barely enough room to pass each other?

What car do you drive?

Separately, was there any consultation with the emergency services on the size of cars increasing over the years?

The current VW Golf is about 18cm wider than the Mk1. Likewise, all other cars have gotten fatter over time. This space could have been used by the emergency services, blah blah blah. Do you see how your arguments are kinda daft?

Many of these cycle lanes are just a few hundred metres of bollards and you have to cycle on other roads to get to them and you are dumped off them back into traffic.

I think you'll find that many cyclists agree that the cycle infrastructure by and large is wholly inadequate. It is good that you agree.

Again, if you cant share the road with cars maybe just dont cycle,if you arent confident on a bike you are a danger to yourself and others.

I'm well able to share the road. However, some of the drivers around me seem unable to reciprocate the sentiment and feel that I should not be there. Bizarrely, I even get drivers travelling illegally in 24/7 bus lanes demanding that I get out of their way. Should they just not drive because they are unable to share the road?

However, there are many who may not have the confidence to cycle on a road given the occasional tosser driving who cannot reciprocate. Should they "just not cycle" because of an occasional self-entitled tosser driving?

And then those who are saying we have to cycle everywhere are the same hypocrites who flew to Egypt to talk about climate change,

Can you quote one person who said that you have to cycle everywhere? Or are you not being truthful?

how many of those pontificating in the Dail use public transport to travel from their rural constituencies, how many city based TDS use public transport and bicycles to get to the Dail,........,lets get rid of all cars and drivers for TDs, wouldnt that set a good example.

To an extent, I agree. We should not be providing them with generaous mileage allowances.

Lets decide now that no TD is flying out of the country for Paddys day and any jaunt they want to take that day has to be done by bike. They can cycle in their home areas and promote tourism that way,see how that idea goes down.

I think your rant has strayed well away from making cycling a normal means of travel. 😏 Maybe start a new thread on this.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888920#Comment_119888920

Who is saying that we have to cycle everywhere?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888639#Comment_119888639

Have you asked the emergency services about this alleged problem? They’re well able to speak for themselves and they don’t seem to be bringing up the issue.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889142#Comment_119889142

They did once in relation to the Salthill cycleway and were pointed out to be incorrect by their colleagues in South Dublin. The gardai in Galway also seemed to oppose it but when questioned they made up some bullsh1t and unfounded excuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888707#Comment_119888707

Oh of course you have!! Why would I doubt you? (#sarcasm).

No, what is astounding is the lengths some will go to, to justify anything that suits their narrative.

Thanks for demonstrating my point yet again, that a sensible discussion simply is not possible, with those whose only interest is in pushing the anti-car agenda. You're doing a great job. 👍️

I find it ironic that those who talk the big talk about road safety and saving lives, have no qualms about emergency vehicles being delayed in getting to calls.

magicbastarder

you do realise that almost all people you are arguing with who have an 'anti-car agenda' are also motorists?

it's funny how it's usually cyclists who are accused of bias, when they're the ones who have the greatest experience of using both modes of transport.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887442#Comment_119887442

OK then what we'll do is say we don't need cycle lanes because some cyclists don't want to used them and are happy to share the space with all road uses. Or if you want to go for spin on on your road bike you use the cycle lanes till you get out of the town onto the open road when you pick up the pace. It's probably 5K of your 50 k spin get over it.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889245#Comment_119889245

If what you are claiming is true regarding emergency vehicles being hindered by road bollards don't you think we might have heard something about all of these stuck emergency personnel and consequent patients left waiting for treatment. Alas no. No such drama exists except in your own imagination. I dare say, such obstruction to emergency vehicles would be national news. But I haven't heard a dickie bird.

No, it is you who is not capable of sensible discussion. And the bizarre thing you can't see past your own self interest whilst accusing others of the same.

Keep your sarcasm for when you learn how and when to deploy it. And keep your ad hominem attacks to yourself also. I did not lie about my previous claim. You needn't try and tell me what I have or haven't seen with my own eyes.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889298#Comment_119889298

On by the same logic, we’ll say we don’t need motorways because some drivers are happy to use local roads, ok?

I can only ask again why you think that your journey is more important than anyone else’s?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888830#Comment_119888830

There was an example gien earlier in the thread by another poster. Go look for it.

But examples I have driven on personally are parts of Main Road, Tallaght Village, and also Wellington Lane (photo below). And for added irony, where is the cyclist in this photo?

Not in the lovely, purpose built, segregated cycle lane, but on the bloody footpath!

I'd love to see an ambulance trying to get through Wellington Lane at morning or evening rush hour. Actually, I take that back, no I wouldn't. Because someone might die.

Now, back to the real world...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889330#Comment_119889330

https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/23132428.concern-cycle-lanes-blocked-ambulance-attending-collision-barrow/

Its only a matter of time before something similar happens here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889283#Comment_119889283

I'm not anti-cyclist, magicbastarder. I don't care who cycles, or why.

I am anti bollards though, and I am against the installation of cycle lanes where there simply is no room for them, but they are being shoe-horned in anyway, to fit some green agenda.

Take that as you will.

magicbastarder

i have personally witnessed, on several occasions, emergency services being blocked/held up by motorised traffic. so i will use the same logic as you - if there is a possibilty that an ambulance could be held up by a wand protected cycle lane, so we should remove the cycle lanes; the proven fact that emergency services can be held up by traffic, means we should remove the traffic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889443#Comment_119889443

Well, if you're going to be that level of facetious, then lets not even bother.

I never said anything about removing any existing cycle lanes. Though I would remove the bollards.

The emergency services have managed pretty well up to now. If something isn't broken, don't fix it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889362#Comment_119889362

Wellington Lane (mostly) has 20ft verges either side. That's not an issue of not having enough space. Its about poorly designed cycle lanes. They've squeezed them on the road when there was no need to. I would wonder why they exist only on some parts of that route.

Main street Tallaght mostly has no bollards. The ones that exist in village, at a first glance seem to there not to protect the cycle lanes, but to prevent parking in that area.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889419#Comment_119889419

What actually IS happening here for decades is an obesity crisis, an air quality crisis, a cancer crisis, a diabetes crisis- all of which are significantly improved by getting more people cycling.

And yet again, our emergency services haven’t raised any issues with cycle lanes.

Be honest, this is just piggybacking on a non issue because you don’t like the general idea.

magicbastarder

you know that removing the bollards would essentially remove the cycle lanes though. you're talking about removing cycle lanes based on a theoretical possibility which you haven't provided a known example of in this country yet.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889362#Comment_119889362

Can we post lots of photos of cars on footpaths to appreciate that irony?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889419#Comment_119889419

I can't find a recent photo or video showing what they've done in Barrow, UK.

But it seems they replaced parking with cycle lanes.

https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/19613981.parking-spaces-two-barrow-roads-near-bae-removed-make-way-cycle-lanes/

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889498#Comment_119889498

The examples given mostly don't have bollards.

You'd have to ask why hard bollards were installed on only key points on those routes. Maybe it just a poor design chocies, or there was another reason like parking causing congestion.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889362#Comment_119889362

But examples I have driven on personally are parts of Main Road, Tallaght Village, and also Wellington Lane (photo below). And for added irony, where is the cyclist in this photo?

There looks to be room on either side of the Ford pick-up (which is a wide vehicle). I don't see why you think "traffic barely has room to pass each other, and is left with no room to pull into the side"

Also, are you expecting me to defend the person on the bike or what? If you need a little gotcha moment, well done, your ma must be so proud of you! I'm sure if I bothered looking, I'd find plenty of cars up on footpaths too but I'd rather go and have lunch!

I'd love to see an ambulance trying to get through Wellington Lane at morning or evening rush hour. Actually, I take that back, no I wouldn't. Because someone might die.

There are two lanes there, both of which are still fairly wide - why would an ambulance not be able to get through?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889362#Comment_119889362

You can see how little room there is in that photo for cars to pass each other.

At least though there is a gap in the bollards for the left turn.

In some areas the bollards are so continous you are almost on top of the left turn you need to take which makes cycling more dangerous than it need be as the driver is concentrating on looking for the gap between the bollards to move left.

I really think the people designing these cycle lanes never actually cycle themselves at all, it seems to be a case of sticking them in to get the likes of the men posting here off their backs, I have a certain amount of sympathy for the officials but when you make the roads more dangerous for cyclists and motorists and experienced cyclists wont even use the lanes provided,well, what is the point.

magicbastarder

aren't many of those wands designed to be driven over if necessary anyway? i wonder if there's a protocol in place for emergency services to do so if the need arises.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889504#Comment_119889504

These are the two roads mentioned in the article. Have a look and please explain how there's not room for a cycle lane there.

https://goo.gl/maps/Rrp19VZuPonMYjZn8

https://goo.gl/maps/2GGAwFVvSvuA9mVx6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889540#Comment_119889540

Some are easy to lift up, some residents who cant drive into their driveways because of them are just removing them themselves.

The point is two way cycle lanes should not be installed if it means leaving no room for drivers to pull over to allow Gardai and emergency services to pass.

Many of the roads the cycle lanes are bollards are installed on were perfectly safe for cycling, I have cycled for many years happily sharing road space with cars and personally I hate these cycling lanes. Hate having people cycle towards me at full speed, hate having them speeding up behind me in the confined space, absolutely hate being hemmed by by groups of lycra wearing males, dont like having to wait for children on trikes and scooters to let me pass.

The cycle lanes are actually putting me off cycling, thats the truth of it.

magicbastarder

those roads - as in the two street view images - are bizarrely wide.

also worth mentioning that the journalist in question talked to 'dozens' of residents, but doesn't state whether she contacted the ambulance service in question for their view. usual 'your job is to put your hand out the window to see if it's raining'.