Little changes we can make to normalise cycling and encourage its uptake

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879992#Comment_119879992

So law breaking doesn’t matter when it comes to drivers, got it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878679#Comment_119878679

yep, bollards are required given the total lack of enforcement of road traffic law.

when the council painted the cycle lane on griffith avenue, it made zero difference to parking. people just parked on it because many/most/whatever motorists think public space is theirs to take.

someone mentioned the weather. the average rainfall in dublin is between 650 and 700mm per year. in amsterdam, it's over 850mm IIRC.

magicbastarder

in terms of small changes that could be made, ban car parking on the road within 300m of a school (with obvious exceptions granted).

it's not so much to prevent kids being dropped to school, but to stop the immediate area around the school itself from becoming a danger zone. there's a school 200m from me and you need your wits about you passing it in the morning and the afternoon at dropoff/pickup time.

noelfirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879633#Comment_119879633

Congratulations! With the exception of Chesterfield Avenue, that selection covers most of my commute (Chapelizod to Belfield). All of those interventions are justified for the reasons I already mentioned. Fingers crossed there are some more to come soon along the canal section at several junctions. Could they be nicer? Oh yes, almost certainly, but goodness knows how long that will take and how much interference from vested interests it would be subjected to.

bk

I will say that I'm not a fan of the visual clutter of bollards, but they are a temporary evil until we transition to less visually cluttered options.

Griffith Avenue is again an example of this. They initially put up bollards, but they only lasted a few months and have now been replaced by a concrete kerb, which seems to do the same job of keeping cars out of the bike lane, while looking far less intrusive, actually barely noticeable.

Not perfect though, as such concrete kerbs aren't great for narrow unidirectional bike lanes, as they trap the cyclist into the lane and make it more difficult and dangerous to overtake slower cyclists or other obstacles. They are better suited to wider two way cycle lanes.

Really we need to be building high quality, wide bi-directional cycle lanes where ever possible, like it was on Griffith Avenue, but wasn't done.

Here is a great example coming to Dun Laoghaire, looks great and really improves the look of the public realm:

bk

BTW Just watched the video for the new Dun Laoghaire cycle lanes and looks great overall, a proper high quality cycle lane. Well done to the planners who designed that.

Sigh, why can't we have the same planners here in DCC. You could have very easily built that same high quality bike lane on Griffith Avenue, without taking any extra space from the road, footpath or car parking and it would have looked better too.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879810#Comment_119879810

Never but when someone hits my car and drives off, I report them. Do you see my point now.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880761#Comment_119880761

No, I don't see your point. What's the point of building a huge administrative system that will fundamentally be a barrier to take-up of cycling, when you've confirmed that you're not going to use it? This is a solution looking for a problem to solve. Gardai don't have a problem with holding cyclists accountable. Motor insurers don't have a problem with dealing cyclists. As smarter countries around the world are working their asses off to encourage and in some cases, to directly incentive cycling, you want to create an administrative system that no country in the world had deemed necessary, except North Korea? A cynic might think the actual objective was to deter cycling.

magicbastarder

also - zero rate bikes for VAT purposes. more equitable than the BTW scheme (but still encourage employers to allow bikes to be bought as part salary sacrifice to help spread the cost to employee over the year).

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880987#Comment_119880987

I like the idea of abolishing VAT on bikes as I said it in my OP. However, what’s stopping shops from keeping prices the same and pocketing the VAT?

Imagine a bike costs €1,000 today. The same bike ex. vat should be €813. The cynic in me says some chains will keep charging €1,000 or up the price to €900, thus pocketing some or all of the savings.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880987#Comment_119880987

No justification for a VAT exemption for bikes and cycling gear. Zero rate on public transport only is fine. Bikes, like cars, and the clothes we chose to wear using them, are a personal luxury good.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881187#Comment_119881187

Cyclists will benefit society in the long run. Cleaner air, lower hospital occupancy, reduce strain on the HSE. Less fines from not meeting pollution targets.

More room on the roads for the handful of people for whom driving is the only option (disabled etc) and more room for those who insist on driving 200 metres down the road.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881187#Comment_119881187

we give grants to people to buy electric cars, to insulate their houses, etc.

would you argue that grants for EVs should be abolished because cars are luxury items?

i would argue that a bike can be a luxury item, but is not necessarily one. i would not consider a bicycle used for a commute to work to be a luxury item, no more than public transport to get to work would be a luxury good.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879807#Comment_119879807

One thing we can all do is stop spoofing and telling lies. So I'm going to knock this ^^ myth on the head.

There are more cyclists in Dublin than there are anywhere else in the country. And according to the stats & facts from people on the ground it's proven that cyclists are the safest & most aware road users in the capital.

According to Transdev Ireland (LUAS people) the number of Emergency Brake (EB) applications made by tram drivers can be a useful leading safety indicator as it can show there was potential for an unsafe condition to manifest. In 2020, there was a total of 614 EB applications, which is a substantial reduction from 938 in 2019 (figure 28). TDLR analysis indicates that 43% of these are due to technical issues with the tram or its operation, which can range from blockage of door leaves to faults with the tram control system. The analysis also indicates that 29% are attributable to road vehicles, 21% to pedestrians and 5.7% to cyclists. 

magicbastarder

to address an obvious comment on that; cyclists are outnumbered by motorists, so you would expect to see a higher figure for motorists.

however, the relative difference there is that motorists are five times more likely to cause an EB. but based on the canal cordon count (were we to use that as a basis on which to determing the actual ratio, motorists outnumber cyclists by a factor of approx 4 (based on the 2019 cordon count).

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880878#Comment_119880878

Are you abit slow. I'm not in the business of randomly reporting drivers or cyclists. If however a driver or cyclist causes damage or an accident or whatever, I need to be able to identify them to be sure they are held accountable. Presently, as I've personally experienced, dark wet rush hour streets of Dublin, a cyclist damages my mirror while I'm stopped and cycles off into the night.

So tell me, how do gardai hold the cyclist above accountable seeing as they are unidentified.

The system doesn't need to be complicated.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881471#Comment_119881471

The statistics do not prove that cyclists are the safest and most aware road users.

Statistics show that cars break more red lights, but from personal experience I observe that cyclists are far more likely to blast through a red light as a pedestrian is about to step out at a pedestrian crossing. I would love to see what the numbers would be like if you were to examine each breaking of the light and count actual near-collisions vs rolling through empty lights.

Cars going through empty red lights are less dangerous than cyclists going through lights where pedestrians are trying to cross. Cars mostly won't risk hitting a pedestrian because they don't want the hassle of killing someone. Just as cyclists don't want a bang off a tram so they steer clear of the Luas.

But many cyclists (correctly) figure pedestrians will get out of their way at the last gasp and there is insanely dangerous cycling in Dublin, especially in the city centre, which purely statistical presentations of the situation miss.

I had to literally jump off the road twice this year because of cyclists who think that because they are behind a machine that people on foot must yield to them. It is exactly the same mentality as a bad motorist hulked in their glass-and-metal box thinking they are invulnerable.

growleaves

^^There are qualitative differences between the actual, particular road traffic offences committed by motorists and cyclists that purely numeric statistical presentations do not capture fully.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881334#Comment_119881334

Fine, make basic models up to a price point VAT exempt, not your space-age, carbon-fibre weekend warrior machine costing a few grand.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882092#Comment_119882092

So no grants for Teslas? Only basic nissan leafs. Surely you’ll apply the same logic to cars.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882203#Comment_119882203

Already capped in a similar manner for cars.

magicbastarder

removing VAT from a €1k bike will basically result in a €230 'grant'. sounds quite reasonable.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882087#Comment_119882087

amen to that.

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882240#Comment_119882240

€187 actually 😉😉

Assuming that the €1,000 you mentioned was the vat inclusive price.

bladespin

First step would be to achieve weather control, stop the rain and cold that put most people off cycling.

Next would be to make things closer, mommy (or Daddy) shouldn't need to cycle over 100km to drop the kids to their schools and get to work.

I also think things like calling for 'unmerciful' enforcement just sets a bad example for cyclists, you're creating a divide with language like that, the same could be called for by pedestrians or motorists watching red light compliance by 'others'.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879825#Comment_119879825

Actually the average rainfall for

Utrecht is 456mm less per year compared to Munster

Zealand in Denmark is 711 mm less per year than Munster

Brussells is 467mm less per year than Munster

Hamburg in North Germany is 536 mm less per year than Munster

https://www.worlddata.info/

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882261#Comment_119882261

Who goes to school 100 km away?

I never said driving should be stopped, I said cycling should be encouraged. I obviously didn’t advocate forcing people to cycle from Dublin to Newry etc.

And what about the weather? Go to Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, northern Germany… you might see some similarities 🌧 ☔️

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882264#Comment_119882264

Any comparative figure for Dublin where most of our congestion is and thus where pro-cycling agendas would be most beneficial? Or are you shifting goal posts to make an agenda?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882050#Comment_119882050

What if a pedestrian causes a crash, when a driver swerves to avoid a pedestrian who didn’t look before crossing? Do pedestrians need to be registered too?

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882203#Comment_119882203

We don't need to incentivise the filthy rich in anything, they can well afford it.