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Munster v Ulster URC round 7 Match thread

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Ulster player was low and changed position at the last minute.

    Basically he made it up. Stone cold red and he backed out of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 923 ✭✭✭JPCN1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Didn't see the game or hear Murphy's rationale but hard to see that as anything but red.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    What sprung to mind was Papaili for connacht. He had a few reds for very similar tackles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Some thoughts on that:

    • Ulster's lineout maul in the first half the deciding factor. No great surprise it was such a weapon for them, but we handled it much better in the 2nd half. (Small hint of truck and trailer for the 2nd try, I thought - Stewart had a good game and peeled off just in time). 
    • The Vermeulen incident; if it's spotted it's clearly a red. There's a balance between making speedy decisions to keep the game flowing, and getting the right decision. That comes down to the TMO way more than the ref, for me. 
    • The Fekitoa incident; it didn't look as bad in real time, but would have had no complaints if red. (Brad Shields is the one that came to mind for me).
    • Crowley was excellent, he gives us real direction in attack. Really unlucky with the conversion, but interesting to see him getting the full 80 with Healy on the bench. (He's down for 15 tackles as well, he's our best 10 defensively as well).
    • Barron is playing great stuff at the moment. We're having lineout issues, which obviously don't all come down to him, but we're having those issues with Scannell too. Barron offers way more in the loose; I'd like to see him start the European games.
    • Definite improvement in the attack since the start of the season, imo. Haley getting involved a lot as well. Errors a times, but positives as well, it does feel like it's beginning to come together.
    • Crowley, Barron and Hodnett our best players. Patterson, John Ryan, Edogbo and Kendellen all went well too and JOD's best game in while. 
    • Edogbo's down for 27 tackles. He's a huge prospect.
    • Lastly, Leinster fans commenting on Munster's "shocking attendance" will never not be funny to me. Over 15k thru the gate last night. 


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Anyone know who got Man of the Match, out of interest?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,130 ✭✭✭Former Former Former




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    Nobody ever hyped up the Leinster fans as much as the Munster's who were one with the team on a journey a crusade even.

    15k+ is very poor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You must think the Leinster attendances are woeful by comparison?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    The first mitigation was that Fekitoa was in a low position trying to make a genuine tackle.

    As opposed to the "always high" you often see referees say for high tackles.

    Not that the Ulster player was low.

    Yellow the correct call.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,406 ✭✭✭testtech05


    He may have started low but he hit upwards into the head of an upright player. To be honest I thought he was very lucky to get away with a yellow



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Think the force played into the yellow as well even if it wasn't mentioned - don't think many people called the high tackle live at the time - but full speed the level of danger is considerably lower than it looks when slowed down.

    Agree though - always lucky to get away with a yellow when there's shoulder contact to the head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,130 ✭✭✭Former Former Former



    Yeah the slow motion gifs make it look a lot worse. There wasn't that much power in it.

    The ref was looking straight at it in real time and didn't react, neither did any of the Ulster players. Not a single arm went up in protest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    I have just said Leinster fans are not the best, regularly where I live I see Mayo flags etc on people's houses.

    Never a Leinster one, all around Leinster County's in every pub you still see Munster flags. Leinster flags starting to be seen in pubs now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Stonewall red and has been for the past 3/4 years. He made contact with his shoulder driving upwards to the head. It looked worse in slo-mo but that isn’t mitigation down to a yellow. Rugby is either taking concussion seriously or it's not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 267 ✭✭VayNiice


    Well you'll always see a variety of flags in Dublin as people from all over the country move there to work etc. I don't see that as an indication that leinster fans are lacking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Agree. In slow motion it looked bad, in real time it was more clumsy. We have seen those given as harsh reds.

    There were a lot worse incidents this weekend which went unpunished including contact with the eye and an off the ball tip tackle. But we typically do not see citings in the inter pros so let’s see.

    Just to add - if it had been red I would have said grand - contact with the head means that is the risk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    I have seen Munster flags in my own estate tricolours for the soccer and then the there's the Dub's and slava Ukraine.

    Maybe Leinster fan's just get on with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,048 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'll take the 15k of proper fans who are there to actually watch the match and support the teams over 45k daytrippers to the aviva bar while there happens to also be a game on



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,048 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    There were more people at the Munster Ulster game than at the Ulster- Connacht game (10k), which was not a sell-out, or the Ulster- Leinster game (14k)

    The two highest attended Interpro's this year both involved Munster.

    The Munster Leinster game was by far the highest attended game this season involving club teams, soon to be rivaled by the Munster SA game in a sold out PUC

    Munster's attendances are down a bit recently, which is explainable by our poor record recently, and the cost of living eating into disposable income, but we will come back up if the players give the fans something to root for (I paid 150 euros for 4 tickets which is a luxury not everyone can afford right now (including me))

    Ironically, our slow start to this season could see a dramatic end to the season where every single game becomes a must win game to qualify for Europe next season.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭clsmooth




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,048 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I don't know if you're being sarcastic there, but I agree with that statement on face value

    Munster face a really challenging season from where we are now, but for the first time in ages, we have a roster of extremely promising players who we can actually select

    We're building the next generation of Munster players now, who will be the driving force in munster rugby for the next decade



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Agreed some great young players coming through. Think Rowntree is doing a good job. Touch of Stephen Kenny and Ireland to it. Results might not be good, but at least they’re building something. Makes a big (and much needed) change from the dross served up by JVG over the last few years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    Agree with that but it's not going to pay for the stadium loan or the two new centres you need.

    Then too folk might be saving their powder Parc ui chaoimh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You think Munster should be getting a full house to every home game in Thomond?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Munster Ulster should be the second most attended league game in Thomond. People are judging it on that basis.


    It was never going to be because both teams are shorn of their internationals and Munster have a bad run of injuries.


    The calendar wasn't kind.


    I'm pretty sure Munster usually charge more for a game with Ulster than a standard league match? Did they do that this time? Probably not a good idea given the teams out and the spot in the calendar.


    Also the match with South Africa may have sucked out a number of casuals who only travel for games occasionally. Mick Dawson (I know he was the Leinster CEO not the Munster one) has stated that this effect is a big reason that Leinster doesn't bid for international mid week games.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'm pretty sure Munster usually charge more for a game with Ulster than a standard league match? Did they do that this time

    Are you sure? As far as I’m aware, they’re always priced the same.

    What do you think would be a good attendance?

    And what do you think would be a good attendance for Leinster?

    The criticism of Munster’s attendance genuinely baffles me at times.

    Overly simplifying but the stadium can hold 25% of the city’s population, like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    It's been a long time since I looked at the detail of Munster tickets. I'm fairly sure it used to be Leinster, Ulster and Heineken Cup Group stage games in a more expensive bracket than the rest of the league. That was a long long time ago though.


    I think Munster should be aiming to sell out with Leinster if both teams have a decent squad and aiming for 20k+ for Ulster.


    As I said with the teams out the interpro wasn't anything special so poorer attendance is to be expected.


    It's imo disappointing that the second most attractive game of the season got such a poor slot. That said its understandable as both teams were similarly effected by international call ups.


    Regarding your point about % of city population that's true but Munster needs to be more of a province rather than Limerick city rfc. Not sure how to do that though.


    For the record I'm willing to condemn Leinster management too. They need to take steps to draw in casual fans for "lesser" games. A stadium that has drawn most season ticket holders and is practically empty otherwise shouldn't be acceptable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    One thing I would add that watching teams shorn of up to 16 internationals is not great. no matter how much young talent is on display.

    Aloof why mention the cities population? the support is multi province for Munster.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,675 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Leinster is in the same category as the HC games. Ulster had always been a normally priced game. Munster have never really sold 20k plus tickets for anything other than Leinster and the HC. 15-16k is about normal for Ulster or Connacht.

    I do find it amazing that Munster attendences are always questioned. Ulster failed to sell their 18k stadium out for either Connacht or Leinster this season or either of the two games against Munster last season, yet nobody ever mentions it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,275 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    A sell out in Thomond is a big ask.

    Before the redevelopment its capacity was around 12-13K and other than European games it nearly always didn't sell out (some of the interpros back then were held in Cork). There were a couple of big seasons after Munster won the Heineken Cup twice where they got huge numbers into the new Thomond but it still didn't really sell out. 20K against Glasgow or Cardiff is exceptional but not really sustainable as has been shown since.

    In relation to other provinces getting 15K for a home game against Ulster is what you'd expect. It's not terrible by any means.

    The stadium is very big for what Munster usually need and that can skew people's thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    I didn't realise that about Munster, always looked jammers in the past.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I think Munster should be aiming to sell out with Leinster if both teams have a decent squad and aiming for 20k+ for Ulster.

    With the Leinster game back at it's Christmas time slot, I'm expecting that to sell out, so we're halfway there at least.

    It's imo disappointing that the second most attractive game of the season got such a poor slot.

    Realistically, both the European games are more attractive also. I'd expect that to be reflected in the attendances also. (To be fair, I suspect you meant for the domestic competition).

    Regarding your point about % of city population that's true but Munster needs to be more of a province rather than Limerick city rfc. Not sure how to do that though.

    No disagreement at all there. But that goes for all the Provinces. And ultimately, the attendance at a game is a function of the population of the city that it's hosted in.

    The point is, if Munster are underachieving (and I don't necessarily think they are), then Leinster are massively underachieving. But you hear the former far more than the latter. Typically from Leinster fans, weirdly enough.

    For the record I'm willing to condemn Leinster management too. They need to take steps to draw in casual fans for "lesser" games. A stadium that has drawn most season ticket holders and is practically empty otherwise shouldn't be acceptable.

    That's fair, but I'd reiterate my point above there. I am interested tho, if stadium capacity wasn't an issue, what attendances do you think Leinster should typically be doing during the season?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Aloof why mention the cities population? the support is multi province for Munster.

    As I said above, because the attendance at a game is a function of the population of the city that it's hosted in. I presume you meant "multi-county"? That should be the aim for every Province.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I do find it amazing that Munster attendences are always questioned.

    If that poster thinks it was a "shocking attendance" wait until he hears about the crowd in the RDS for the semi-final last last year...





  • Best fans in the world™



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    That would probably be somewhere like La Rochelle or Clermont.

    I hesitate to wade into this particular discussion, but the reason people bring up Munster attendances more than the other provinces is that Munster has this image/reputation of being one of the most passionate and all-in supporter bases in Europe, which is embraced by their supporters. But if we're honest, the attendance figures are more or less in line with the other Irish provinces for a long while now (and statistically behind one of the Scottish teams, for what that's worth). There's more to a fanbase than attendance figures, obviously, and I don't agree fully with the argument, but that's why it's brought up time and again. The other provines don't have that inherent claim to be more into it than the anyone else.

    I think we all know that though at some level or other, and denying it is a little disingenuous. Maybe that's just me though.

    (My personal opinion as a Leinster fan, Ulster wins the fan award in the last decade for me. Ravenhill/Kingspan is always a very passionate/hostile crowd to see your team play in front of and they are often top of the pile in terms of % attendance etc, so they get the gold star in the senior infants playground from me)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    But if we're honest, the attendance figures are more or less in line with the other Irish provinces for a long while now

    There’s one very obvious counter-argument to the above; the population bases in proximity to the stadia.

    There’s a pretty reasonable argument that even if Munster are in line with other Irish provinces, they’re still outperforming them.

    (and statistically behind one of the Scottish teams, for what that's worth).

    Is that actually true? I don’t think it is tbh.

    I think we all know that though at some level or other, and denying it is a little disingenuous.

    I think you’re generally a reasonable poster, Dave, so I’m a little surprised at this because…

    Ulster … and they are often top of the pile in terms of % attendance

    % attendance? Is that not a little disingenuous itself? Again, there’s a very obvious counter-argument to this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Well there has to be some metric, I suppose so no I don't see it as disingenuous. Not sure what else to use. I'd see the percentage of how full the stadium is (assuming the stadium is of the appropriate size - see also the Scottish thing which is why I said 'for what that's worth', as in in that case it's not worth much) as a reasonable enough measure. I get what you're saying but bums on seats is all that matters really at the end of the day. The location of the stadium is what it is. Better measures welcome.

    In any case, specifically Munster's attendances don't really bother me much, the point of the post was more the "why does this come up so often" side of things. I think the attendances across all four provinces are generally pretty decent most of the time. There's always exceptions mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I get what you're saying but bums on seats is all that matters really at the end of the day.

    You’re conflating things here tho; % attendance is not the same as bums on seats.

    By your reasoning, if Munster had played the game in Cork and gotten 8k (which they would have) that would be better than getting 15k in Thomond.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Not quite what I meant, I'm aware they're two different things. Anyways, going to leave this here as it's a hole I've no intention of too far down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Ah look fair enough, but if you're aware of the difference, you'll note that the comparison to being "statistically behind one of the Scottish teams" is, at best, "a little disingenuous", to borrow a phrase. (Even if not intentionally).

    I maintain my point in any case; if Munster are under-performing with regards attendance, then Leinster are massively under-performing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Surely a lot of is optics more than anything else. People comment because of what they see. Leinster getting 15k into the RDS looks quite full. Munster getting 15k into Thomond looks half empty. Prompting comment, which may not accurately reflect the reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    This is it entirely, tbh.

    Tho iirc, the OP in this case was posting screenshots of empty sections of the Aviva for the QF last year, so I should've known better than to get into it tbh....



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