Reflection on the pandemic: questions about the authorities' response.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358701#Comment_120358701

Well there was a group in Ireland, ISAG, who maintained a strongly zero-covid stance throughout. I don't think they were ever called out on this position. This suggests to me a tacit acceptance within the wider advisory community. Also if you look at the membership it is full of professors and senior consultants. If they are pushing a particular line, they are likely to be influential among politicians and policymakers.

It is possible that we did not go down the full zero-covid route, not because zero-covid was rubbish as a scientific position (as we now know), but rather because it was impractical with a porous border with the North and membership of the EU. China could attempt it with its authoritarian rule and Australia and NZ because of their geography. For most countries the full implementation of zero covid was never practical so the next best thing, heavy restrictions and lockdowns, without much thought to the long-term consequences, was attempted.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358895#Comment_120358895

That's one group here who did not direct actual policy. And we did not go down the zero covid route. This is a miles away from proof of eradication as the basis in the listed countries over the course of the pandemic. If anything it is proof of the opposite.

It was explicitly rejected by government and NPHET

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/explainer-could-ireland-become-a-zero-covid-island-1074034.html

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358920#Comment_120358920

I did not mean to suggest that it was the overt stated reasons for this or that decision but rather that it was an underlying and unacknowledged bias affecting the mindset of decision makers.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120340946#Comment_120340946

Unfortunately there is nothing entertaining about this show. The people doing the gaslighting now were the same people cheerleading the removal of freedoms during the pandemic, and are the same people who will be playing their little games during the next social media crisis.

The problem is that the media and in turn the government take their lead from these sorts. Government is a reflection of society after all, and that means that these behaviours will be seen again and we will suffer the consequences again.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Which explains why certain people argued so strongly against an independent and public review of the pandemic response.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357464#Comment_120357464

Dunno. I was not living there most of that decade.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358752#Comment_120358752

That . Is. Not at all what you said in the post I replied to .

You talked about excess deaths when the study I posted was about covid deaths in one particular year . You said it was too early to assess excess deaths in your next post. I agreed as my post was about " covid deaths in 2020 " . This is the year the lack of restrictions in Sweden is interesting because of the differences between it and Norway . Then you come back with the post above ..which is true generally , but not in reference to what we were talking about . In this particular instance Covid deaths are more to the point than excess deaths . They are the reason they applied restrictions after all in the following year and that is why their excess deaths overall were better .

That is my point.

On reading your posts you are not replying to the point we were talking about but going off in another direction. Bit of a waste of my time discussing this further . I just can't be bothered trying to anticipate which goalpost is going to be moved next tbh, so I think I'll be leaving this here .

Multipass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358496#Comment_120358496

The reduction in screening is ongoing, breast cancer screening where I live has not caught up. My own is a year late so far, and counting.

There will be deaths due to lockdown that haven’t even been diagnosed yet.

Goldengirl

Sorry to hear. Hope you are ok.

Have never thought that screening should have been paused beyond the first lockdown.

Was showing studies that show that alcohol has a major link with cancer known since before the pandemic. However alcohol consumption has decreased during the pandemic years although still higher than European counterparts.

Cancer deaths in Ireland are attributable to more than paused screening but there would be an inevitable boost in numbers diagnosed after screening gains momentum following the pandemic.

Delays in diagnosis and treatment because of Covid, not lockdown, is still ongoing with services running to catch up.

Have personal experience of this so am aware of the worry and stress involved.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362948#Comment_120362948

@Goldengirl wrote:

"In this particular instance Covid deaths are more to the point than excess deaths . They are the reason they applied restrictions after all in the following year and that is why their excess deaths overall were better."

There's two problems however with using Covid deaths as a metric. First of all, because of the way they measured, they don't distinguish between those who died directly from the disease and those who died from something else but had Covid incidentally. The second problem is that the measures themselves taken against Covid (such as shutting down hospitals) can have a cost in lives. Both of these need to be taken into consideration.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374194#Comment_120374194

Did Sweden have deaths from shutting hospitals that first year ?

Because I thought that that was the point , they didn't ...shut the hospitals that is , just under pressure 🤔

(Thinking of that gif with the goalposts being moved all over the pitch now !)

I don't think we are on the same page , but that's ok .

That would cause an increase maybe in general deaths .

PTH2009

Questions need to be asked as too why we made a show of ourselves been the only host county too pull out of hosting The Euro 20/21 games (Spain changed cities) due too restrictions. Cost Dublin a few million €

Suppose it was too risky because of the vaccine roll out etc

walus

Pierse Morgan seems to have learnt a lesson, according to him science evolves and facts change, and the primary function of a journalist is to be sceptical and open to all opinions.

Who would have thought.

https://youtu.be/B8vvDC2Dsjo

TomSweeney

https://youtu.be/hqs3E9wsbwA

Absolute insanity that many labs around the world are continuing with gain of function research, do they want a new more dangerous pandemic ???

seems they do.

Madness

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417786#Comment_120417786

I have some issues with this guy (e.g. I don't believe he has the qualifications to use the title doctor) but I do follow his channel as he does raise important questions.

Ultimately what caused the pandemic was it being covered up for 3-6 months rather than the exact source of the bug. GoF research in itself is not inherantly bad.

live4tkd

Interesting to see what he will say:

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1641386757248745473

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419655#Comment_120419655

He's a scaremongering nurse. An amateur who picks up on specific points to then turn them into conspiracies. He's been doing it throughout the pandemic

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419655#Comment_120419655

A PHD is a doctorate degree that can be obtained across many fields. I know someone with PHDs in English and History and when they're being introduced in an official capacity they're being introduced as Dr. Soandso.

You are probably suggesting that because Dr. is commonly associated with medical doctor he is using his title in a misleading way but AFAIK he is literally entitled to it.

Your man Campbell is being accused of having spread 'misleading information'.

So what does it mean when someone says something or someone is 'misleading'? For one thing it doesn't mean the same as 'not true'. Because if it was untrue then whoever labels someone or something as misleading would certainly label them untrue instead.

Moral of the story? Language is a powerful thing and one does well to pay attention to its nuances.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421068#Comment_120421068

He is a retired nurse rather than a medical doctor. He does not have the B.Med/B.Surg needed to call himself Dr.

I personally have a PhD (in electronic engineering) so I take issue with people who claim titles they are not entitled to.

CalamariFritti

Strange then that you of all people do not understand the distinction. He is literally entitled to it.

political analyst

What was the reason for NPHET's initial skepticism about antigen tests?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421213#Comment_120421213

Dont swab properly so get a negative result and go out and about when contagious.

Also antigen tests not as reliable as PCR.

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/home-covid-19-antigen-tests-take-steps-reduce-your-risk-false-negative-results-fda-safety#:~:text=Overall%20performance%20of%20at%2Dhome%20COVID%2D19%20antigen%20tests&text=When%20you%20perform%20an%20at,get%20a%20false%20negative%20result.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421207#Comment_120421207

On what basis? His qualifications are in nursing rather than medicine.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421262#Comment_120421262

Like I said in my first post. A PHD is a doctorate degree and can be obtained in many fields. Someone with a PHD in say history is officially Dr. Soandso. I'm not an expert in doctorates but for all I know you are a doctor too. And if you were Austrian you'd certainly be flaunting it. 😀

In the danger of going into 'conspiracy' now, but I would say YouTube would certainly pull him up on it if they could.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420493#Comment_120420493

He "needs to talk" to an independent tribunal.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421293#Comment_120421293

My view is he does not have any qualifications that would give him the title. No PhD, no degree in surgery, etc.

CalamariFritti

Thats your view and thats fair enough. May or may not be technically correct. No point in beating this one to death. FWIW I know what you mean.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421213#Comment_120421213

They thought Paddy was too fcuking stupid to be able to use one properly.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421371#Comment_120421371

Yep, let's leave at that :)

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420493#Comment_120420493

Interesting alright

'A shark in thrown in the deep end'

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420493#Comment_120420493

About the CervicalCheck scandal?

Probably not - expect 300 pages of puffed-up pomposity of how he did such an amazing job in such difficult circumstances.

darconio

I see nothing changed despite what has emerged: a person is not entitled to analyse the data and demonstrate with articles, studies and knowledge that what happened was, to say it lightly, mismanaged, just because he is a nurse, however we authorised a gp to rule our life for more than 2 years. And in retrospect the majority would be happy to repeat everything, actually they would love to have more of it.

"insanity is repeating the same thing over and expecting a different result"

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422646#Comment_120422646

You have just said we should take the opinion of conspiracy theory baiting video of a retired nurse over a qualified medical doctor who is the chief medical officer (well, multiple chief medical officers in pretty much every non-loony country in the world).

Your basis for beliefs should be questioned.

"insanity is repeating the same thing over and expecting a different result"

If there is another pandemic, the same protocols will be followed and then tweaked as scientific discovery of the new emergent disease becomes evident, just as the SARS-COV2 pandemic followed the spanish flu playbook.

I would bet that vaccines would be available sooner though.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421389#Comment_120421389

It was a repeat of the masks debacle. We were told at the start that masks should not be used as people won’t know how to use them so it would actually be more dangerous to wear a mask. Same screw up them with the antigen tests.

shesty

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2023/03/29/we-destroyed-young-peoples-lives-for-what-it-looks-like-nothing-was-gained-from-it/

An interesting read.Whether he was right or wrong (particularly at the time), in his assessment of the virus itself, I feel he is spot on in his comments about how Ireland was ruled for those 2 years, the media and NPHET, and the level of hysteria involved (wouldn't be like us as a nation to be a bit hysterical about something of course🙄)

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426922#Comment_120426922

He talks about the direct risks to people under 65 while completely ignoring the role in spread by young people.

He ignores the sheer number of cases, level of infectiousness of covid versus flu so that even a low risk translates to a medically significant number of cases.

Similarly with cases, the reason for tracking people who felt ok was because it shows spread of virus and how many infectious people there are. So talk of them as "not cases is all" ... well, it's like he isn't even talking about an infectious disease.

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426922#Comment_120426922

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one”.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426922#Comment_120426922

In Ireland lockdown meant large portions of the state ceasing to operate at all. Even within the bounds of restrictons it was dereliction of duty.

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427802#Comment_120427802

It felt like at certain times NPHET had all the control in all but name as to what could reopen etc

Id say the NPHET meetings with the Senior Government members were fun

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427889#Comment_120427889

Back in 2020 & 2021 it really looked like NPHET were trying to kill hospitality but these days I put it down to civil servants who are not up to scratch.

shesty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427116#Comment_120427116

As I said - whether he was right or wrong about his risk assessing of the actual virus, his assessment of ruling by fear and the hysteria of media outlets forbidding even a debate on whether we were being too extreme in our approaches, are fair points.

He ruined his own point by saying he stayed in bed half a day then went out to do some gardening when he got covid himself (as we all know that isn't how it is for everyone), but he is right in observing that the intolerance for any dissent, and how that happened so quickly, was scary and not right.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428188#Comment_120428188

Very easy to throw out lines like 'hysteria' and 'fear', not so easy to explain how the public health campaign could have been conducted otherwise.

Is there not an element of 'fear' in public health campaigns about STDs? Drink driving? The risks of smoking?

When does it become 'ruling by fear' and 'hysteria'?

His form of 'dissent' was rightly not tolerated in terms of being compatible with his role. That doesn't prove there was intolerance for any form of dissent.

So no, I don't think he is right at all.

bucketybuck

Of course you don't. You don't want to.

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427930#Comment_120427930

True and shows how much of a backbone some of the civil servants had. The stuff they oked like the 'max 15 outdoors only in October 2020', 8pm closing time in Dec 2021 and other nonsensical ideas

A few of them maybe involved in the trade too which is even more baffling

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428315#Comment_120428315

A lot of them seemed happy to take an extended holiday. At least over in the UK they tried to keep things ticking over.

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428433#Comment_120428433

Yep I think the UKs response was brilliant in terms of reopening but a lot of negative stuff has since come out about it

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428695#Comment_120428695

I would not call it brilliant (especially all the corruption) but at least there was some understanding of the needs for people to get on with their lives.

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428695#Comment_120428695

There is more and more info on strategies that were use by ‘nudge units’ working on making sure that the vaccines were promoted with the right type of messaging. One of the more popular work purposefully adopted by many such ‘nudge units’ who structured the messaging used in the media and by some talking heads throughout the pandemic:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8531257/

Table 1 is particularly interesting, outlines those Treatment Arms that were proven by the study to be particularly effective in driving compliance i.e. community interest, community interest + embarrassment, not bravery, trust the science, personal freedom. Experiments were conducted ahead of the deployment of the vaccines, and the messaging was created around those most impactful treatment arms.

If any of this rings a bell, you know where it came from and what it was aimed to achieve.

PTH2009

Can't say I'm a fan of that new HSE ad telling older people 'it's ok now' to go and live your life

Beasty

Don't Chute! threadbanned

walus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432878#Comment_120432878

They need to do more studies on how to reverse the effects of ‘nudging’. Can’t see this as being of interest to any particular industry this time round though.