Reflection on the pandemic: questions about the authorities' response.

political analyst

Stephen Donnelly's response to Fergus O'Dowd's question about whether a commission of inquiry into Covid deaths in nursing homes was being considered is on the following page.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-05-26/116/

Indeed there are several questions about the Irish authorities' response to the pandemic:

In the last weeks before Christmas 2020, why didn't the government simply keep the ban on sit-down dining in restaurants and cafés while letting barber shops and hair and beauty salons re-open? If that had been done, the lockdown early in 2021 would have been much shorter.

Why didn't the government keep the ban on sporting events for all of 2020? It was largely because of some local GAA matches that there was a lockdown in November 2020. We could have done without sport for one year.

Did Tony Holohan give any thought to the effects of lockdown on mental health?

Threadbanned users

DLink

Saviola1978?

snowcat

deidremf

dolanbaker

Flinty997

Don't Chute!

facehugger99

Risteard81

72sheep

The lack of responses to this post and the questions raised speaks volumes for the attitudes of many here.

Their response was an overreaction in the extreme, now they and their supporters prefer to keep quiet now that the fallout from their actions are being questioned by an ever-increasing percentage of the population.

Many of whom are now starting to feel that they really have been taken for a ride with all the additional powers and regulations that looking back failed completely to stop the spread of a virus that has infected almost 100% of the population. An enormous amount of dirs has been swept under a huge carpet that really needs to be investigated, before the next "pandemic" is announced.

Cluedo Monopoly

I doubt the government will want an inquiry on any of it.

NIMAN

The government will simply say that every country took the same measures, and that they were necessary.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119783560#Comment_119783560

Yes the best example of global "blind leading the blind" while in a blind panic to be seen "doing something", without really examining the risks and consequences of their actions, now they mostly wish it will be quietly forgotten.

But on the other hand trying to show a veneer of control by raising the possibility of renewing restrictions if cases rise in the winter.

NIMAN

The government know they will never be able to bring restrictions back in.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784376#Comment_119784376

They'll try, and if they do, there'll be more than enough people out there who will embrace any restrictions with glee, the same zealots will also happily call the dancing idiots to set non believers straight, and / or jam a camera in your face in order to shame you on social media.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119783065#Comment_119783065

For starters the lockdown didn't fail to stop the spread initially based on the data we know that numbers increased rapidly when restrictions were lifted (or ignored).

So why reply to a thread that's starting it's premise with strawman. Few posts in and the name calling and dogma had already started. It's just going to go around in circles.

If this was a serious thread it would be pointing out the contradictory measures taken like locking people at home while allowing people in from other countries. But it's not going down that route. It's going down the conspiracy route just general ranting.

With Respect, the lockdowns failed due to the inconsistent and contractionary measures you mentioned, but also it needs to be remembered that testing was patchy at best in the early days with only those who sought medical attention being tested, many with minor symptoms (those not listed) assumed they just had colds. The rapid increase in "cases" can mostly be attributable to the rapid increase in the testing regime that went from zero to national over the space of a few weeks.

I am very much of the opinion that the measures taken to stop COVID were and have been proven to be a complete and total failure, this can be proven by the fact that most of the population has since been infected, regardless of their vax status, but many not tested directly thus the official figures are far lower than reality. The biggest casualty in all of this is general physical and mental healthcare as we are now seeing excess deaths figure up to 15% higher than the 5 year average, if COVID killed so many elderly and frail people, we really should be seeing a reduction/undershoot of deaths as COVID took them a year or so earlier than they would have died without the outbreak.

But we are seeing the opposite, this is the legacy that has to be discussed, why do we have an excess of deaths?

is it due to the diversion of healthcare from all other medical care to fight (& fail) to defeat COVID or is it something else (that it's forbidden to discuss), the government and "experts" have a lot of answering to do and it is clear that they will be dodging the questions for a long time into the future.

If COVID has passed why are we seeing an excessively high level of deaths in healthy people that are not COVID related?

At least in the UK the government are going to discuss some of these points, we should be doing the same here.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2022-0173/#:~:text=On%20Monday%2024%20October%202022,behalf%20of%20the%20Petitions%20Committee

HBC08

I miss the lunatic Covid threads and posters.

This is nostalgic and quaint,carry on.

I'm retired and have loads of spare time on hands, but I have no intention of following anyone down those bottomless, labyrinthine rabbit holes. Life's far too short to be wasted on such a futile exercise.

I will consider that response with the contempt that is deserves as it addresses none of the issues raised.

id suppose any retrospective would take into account the uncertainties at the time as well as the many social and economic pressures to act towards either extreme of "lockdown" vs "open up completely"

but it's very difficult to gain much traction on message boards with that kind of logic i admit

Flinty997

The population hasn't been infected with the same variant. Its disingenuous to just leave that out. Pretty much invalidates much of your post.

Covid hasn't "passed", it's still around.

It's impossible to reply to a load of vague statements with no context or data. You might have asked why do people always have soup on a monday.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119786126#Comment_119786126

One of the issue you raised was why was no one replying. He answered that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119786128#Comment_119786128

Spanish flu is still with us as well, so what's your point, it has evolved into something that is just yet another seasonal virus, so in that respect, COVID is still around.

As for the excess deaths, well here is one of many articles on the issue

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2335991-there-are-thousands-more-uk-deaths-than-usual-and-we-dont-know-why/

The main speculation is that this could be caused by the diversion of healthcare away from all other aspects of health to concentrate exclusively on fighting COVID.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119786204#Comment_119786204

My point is you've utterly inaccurate with the majority of what you've posted thus far. How is anyone expected to take you seriously or bother replying. Not sure what's happening in UK has to do with Irish Authorities and the lockdown. Seems like thats a entirely different subject.

That's fine, keep your head buried in the sand and ignore everything that is contrary to what you have been indoctrinated with over the past three years.

Flinty997

Ignoring things you don't agree with, might be why you got such a poor response in the first place.

live4tkd

Hindsight is 20:20 and I would have hated to be in the governments shoes throughout this but I believe it is important to ask questions to prepare for the future. I would have supported the governments stance for the first few months. However we do need an enquiry (doubt it will happen though) as to some of the huge decisions made and their consequences which have, are still being and have yet to be felt:

1. Nursing homes and why patients were transferred there (even though it happened worldwide we still need to know the basis for the decision at the time).
2. Summer 2020 they refused to relax restrictions (up to May 18th with a 3 week review period) even though case went down to single figures.
3. Internal travel restrictions and how they were implemented and penalties for same. Garda Checkpoints going to work. Some living near beaches with no-one still being reprimanded. `Closing schools and much of the economy while sending the police after people who sat on park benches – was the most draconian policy introduced in peacetime`.
4. Why were NPHETs figures not questioned continuously throughout. This is so important as so many lives depended on the decisions Covid or not.
5. The reticence in using Antigen testing (snake oil as was called by NPHETs Phillip Nolan).
6. Why was there such deference to NPHET all the time. Journalists and Government treated them like the Catholic Church of old and you were an antivaxxer etc. if you disagreed!
7. Why were such a constant fear narrative with so many doom mongering experts wheeled out all the time in media to give to same continuous narrative frightening some in the population and some of whom are still afraid!
8. Why was there no proper adult mature reflection or debate about Irelands response be it good, bad or indifferent?
9. Why was our response so tunnel visioned? Was there any cost benefit analysis performed into the physical, mental, social, economic consequences of Irelands response outside of Covid? Nothing else was considered if it wasn`t a Covid death and it didn`t matter for a long time. The new UK prime minister raised this in the UK in August https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-lockdown-files-rishi-sunak-on-what-we-werent-told and I suspect we were very similar.
10. Why was there such vilification of the unvaccinated especially at a time, when the vilification campaign began, that a high percentage of our population were vaccinated already?
11. What basis were the vaccine passports issued for if the vaccine companies themselves have not claimed that the vaccines fully prevent transmission even though they are effective at preventing hospitalisations and deaths due to Covid?
12. Why was there such a one sided narrative in national national media throughout?

I hope we never experience anything like this again. I have lost a lot of respect for some in government, some medical personnel, media personalities in the way they behaved throughout this with their endless scaremongering. I feel all sense of balance was lost and despite what some think here borderline infringed on civil rights at times in some instances. I said on a post previously that we would need some sort of majordistraction to snap us out of Covid here in Ireland. Unfortunately we got it in the form of Putin's invasion of Ukraine as

The vaccine rollout here was a success and I have no doubt COVID deaths were prevented by Irelands response to COVID in Ireland but the big question for me continues to be at what cost!

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787508#Comment_119787508

Lots of good questions there, but you're obviously an antivaxer so there's no need to answer any of them, it'd only be feeding the troll ...

Clearly I don't think this, but there are a great many who do.

On the other hand, questions are being asked in the EU parliament now, and it appears that Von der Leyen may have overstepped the mark in several ways regarding procuring the vaccines. Wouldn't it be a howl if the contracts she signed were invalidated and as a result the companies are due nothing (won't happen even if they do invalidate the contracts)?

Personally I feel that Von der Leyen's tenure may be shortened by her actions on the contracts. Time will tell.

Silentcorner

A good start would be why our Health Bureaucrats imposed the most severe restrictions in Europe for a virus that disproportionately affects the elderly despite us having one of the youngest populations and our sparse population spread...it was bonkers, it's the poor people who were frightened out of their wits by those very same bureaucrats I feel sorry for, you'll never get back those years!

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119783065#Comment_119783065

I think the lack of responses is more of a 'people just want to move the fcuk on' tbh and try forget about the whole thing in general.

You don't really change anything with discussing the response or otherwise.

Flinty997

Certainly won't change the mind of anyone only thinking of themselves.

live4tkd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787726#Comment_119787726

Antivaxxer, really? Because I dare question the vaccines!

I have taken my vaccines believe it or not! I am asking very serious questions here that I genuinely want answered. I doubt we would be out of this mess without the vaccines to be honest but I am allowed question them!

kippy

There are a few people, in the minority I would think, that care about what happened (they would have disagreed with any and every angle of the response at the time anyway) and would not accept any "official" findings if they didn't suit their own personal narrative. These seem to be the only people what want reviews etc.

The rest of the population (vast majority) accept that decisions have had to be made at various times and with the benefit of hindsight a number of these decisions could have been better timed or made in the fist place. A review ain't gonna change that.

As such the vast majority of people want to move on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119786126#Comment_119786126

I assume that what you meant that you would TREAT my response with the contempt that IT deserves? If so then I'd like to express my appeciation to you for such an open minded and generous response.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119788075#Comment_119788075

That reply was actually intended for the post immediately before yours as it seems that your post got in before my reply, I have no issues with your reply.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787932#Comment_119787932

I think that the fact you needed to defend yourself here speaks volumes about the sentiment from a significant percentage of the posters here as well as the general public, to use the "antivaxxer" brush to tar anyone who has concerns about how they were tested (or lack of) their efficacy and how they were imposed on some people for fear of job loss or social exclusion.

As things stand, I got COVID before the vaccines were available, therefore I obtained natural immunity and along with the other issues around the lack of testing and the profile of people who were having serious illness from COVID, I made the decision not to get the vax when offered. In hindsight, that was one of the best decisions I could have ever made. I have not had COVID since, so the naturally obtained immunity has protected me. The risk/benefit analysis was strongly in favour of avoiding the vax.

On the other hand if I was over 80 and in poor health, I would have taken the chance and had the vaccination. But the questions you raised are all valid and I really hope. but don't expect them to be answered by the people who made these decisions that had such an impact on everyone's lives.

Getting back to the original points of this thread, those responsible for the measures are aand should be held accountable for the consequences of their actions as they become clear for all to see.

live4tkd

Look the vaccines were a game changer here. The investment and time that went into them were unprecedented. They work but not not as good as we like or some company's claimed. They work against serious illness and death otherwise we would still be under restrictions no doubt.

Again we are entitled to question the response here overall as it definitely turned political both from government and NPHET and we were not alone either I think.

In time when saner heads prevail and we can calmly debate it but for now I suspect its still too soon.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787948#Comment_119787948

I agree with you that most us want to move on and have little interest in a review but our government should be very interested in such a thing. We experienced a 1 in 100 year pandemic, the like not seen since the Spanish Flu pandemic post WW1. It is incumbent on us to review the nation's response in an objective manner. The purpose isn't to assign blame or decide who was right and wrong but to learn how future pandemics could be managed better. Likely that there would be no political appetite for this though, would involve too much admitting that certain pandemic responses could have been managed in better ways. Which is a pity.

Personally, under the circumstances, the Irish goverment and people managed the pandemic quite well. We erred on the side of caution, at times too far. Overall the impact was limited from a death perspective. However, there may be more latent impacts in the fullness of time. I agree with some posters on here that the messaging at times bordered on irrational. That has had a lasting effect on some, I know one member of my own family who before COVID paid little heed to contracting infectious diseases who now still speaks about 'the numbers going up' and is wary of certain indoor events in the fear that they will catch COVID, having yet still to contract it. The psychological impact could be profound and take years to assess.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119788465#Comment_119788465

I really don't think there's that much learning that could be achieved via an "enquiry" or otherwise. The groups that need to learn will learn and it is possible that the next event of similiar magnitude may be in completely different economic, social and scientific times.

Flinty997

Going by this thread, some people didn't learn how Vaccination or natural immunity, or different strains work anyway.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785611#Comment_119785611

I seriously doubt it. We are in a new situation now mass vaccinations, new vaxes etc. Maybe masks in certain places but thats no bad thing.

JRant

It should be a given that a full review be carried out of all decisions made, for the simple reason that most decisions made were political rather than based on science.

Otherw have raised some good questions so far but I'd add a few.

Where did all the money go? That's going to lead to some very interesting reading if it's ever allowed to happen.

Why was the previous pandemic response plan binned for a completely off the wall solution?

What are the criteria for removing civil liberties like we seen for large portions of the lockdowns?

As a citizen of this country I would like every single person involved in the decision making of what happened to be held fully account for there actions.

The whole thing stank after May 2020 and we went until march 2022 with restrictions that were never justifiable.

Our constitutional rights was fucked out the window and I want accountability.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119788498#Comment_119788498

Are you being funny?

The only reason it can't / won't happen right now is because we simply can't afford it at the minute, but what happens if there's another pandemic when we have money again?

Everything would be repeated again because the government needs to be seen not to be killing grannies.

Every decision needs to be picked apart, and people need to account for their decisions, the decisions that caused millions of us to be locked down and have our freedoms restricted for no good reason.

King Tony needs to be hauled over the coals, repeatedly I might add. A neck like a jockey's bollix on him given all the misery he caused.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787726#Comment_119787726

The antivaxxer line is such a weak and lazy response. The poster made some excellent points and has considered the subject. There is no need to be so black and white. Tear the post apart by all means...but people let themselves down time and again with the blinkered antivax response.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789216#Comment_119789216

If we have another pandemic the circumstances will be different.

Dragging someone over the coals doesn't change anything.

Flinty997

Fyi

https://jrnl.ie/5901644

lumphammer2

March 16th 2020 saw me just complete Margaret Atwood's dystopian novel The Testaments .... 11 days later I saw that world become real on 27th March 2020 at around 8PM ... 2KM rules and all that ... there clearly was no need for that level of oppression and for it to go on from then to 29th June and then be repeated lasting most of October 2020 to May 2021 was bizarre and scary ...

That policy was copied from China ... a Chinese law to lock down the country in event of a revolution ... China in turn copied it from 1980s Poland when such laws were used to quell anti regime sentiment ...

Such policy has its roots in dealing with political opposition in totalitarian states ... and have not been used to deal with other modern pandemics ... they clearly should not have been used for Covid 19 ...

I have no problem with masks, vaccines, social distancing that makes sense, etc ... but a lot of these alternatives and the approach taken by Czech Republic, Iceland and South Korea were initially ruled out by Leo Varadkar when put to him ... now the very things initially ruled out are the norm ... things I was saying from the start as alternatives to stupid long lockdowns ... I hope we have learned our lesson and will not copy authoritarianism again ...

China btw despite vaccines and knowing more about Covid 19 continue with long lockdowns ... it is clearly about control not Covid ... Xi gave himself a third term ...

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789368#Comment_119789368

It wouldn't change anything in the past, but it'll certainly make them think twice before fücking us over again in the future if there's a risk of losing their pension or possibly even going to jail.

What you are suggesting, by having no review or accountability, is authoritarian in nature... we knew what was best for you in the past, and we know what's best for you in the future. How dare you question our decisions and how dare you ask how we spent YOUR tax money.

These idiots need to be made to sweat and think before they jump, sorry, sweat and think before they make us jump next time around.

ZX7R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789270#Comment_119789270

Did anyone bother to read the second line of there post

The poster says

Clearly I don't think this, but there are a great many who do.

Don't Chute!

It’s a pretty simple answer to the question of whether the government will answer any questions about their response. No. Why? Because as we all know, in Ireland there is absolutely no accountability for anything and never will be. Our “leaders” think we are fcuking idiots who will do anything we’re told and of course Covid proved that they are right.

YFlyer

The government not given a straight answer whether colleges be open or not after the summer holidays of 2020.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789977#Comment_119789977

After everything that happened, you still have people happy for this to happen again without question...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789368#Comment_119789368

The circumstances of a future pandemic MAY be different, I will admit that, but throwing previously agreed upon pandemic plans out of the window and going straight to lockdown is not the answer.

The people in charge need to know there are consequences before they screw us over with their decisions, but you are right, the Irish people will do what they are told, and shame anyone who goes against, or even just questions, the rules.

The Japanese have a good phrase for this.... "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down". There's no beating like a good browbeating.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789998#Comment_119789998

I personally, just want to move the fcek on to be honest. It was a tough 2 years for everyone. I don't see any benefit in a review and if you look at the decision making process in how the pandemic was handled you'd see that not one single person was responsible for the approval of a decision - thats the defence that always gets used when reviews are undertaken.

A minority of people are bothered.

Silentcorner

Moving on is all well and good, but our Government is currently preparing plans for energy shortages, that involve restrictions on citizens.

We also have, what we are being told is a climate emergency.

We have seen how easy it is for Governments/Bureaucrats to condition the public, too many of us are prepared to hand over our civil liberties and not have the acumen to ask why.

DLink

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790436#Comment_119790436

In fairness, I can see your point, and I also want to move on, but if you let these lads get away with what they did scot-free and without consequences, they'll just rinse and repeat.

And if it was decision by committee, then hang the entire committee out to dry... they'll think twice about doing it again.

At the very least they should have a "Designated Dessie" in future, someone who is the responsible adult on the team and let them make the final go/no-go decision, everyone hid behind the committees last time and passed the buck around, it's just not acceptable to be locking up healthy people and killing the economy, borrowing even more money to pay for the auld Netflix subscriptions.

Whatever way they do it, people sitting on gilded pensions at the top of the food chain making decisions that affect the people at the bottom of the food chain MUST be forced consider the problems they create downstream with their decision... the people at the bottom are the people who PAY for their gilded pensions after all.

PommieBast

Part of the problem was large portions of the state simply shutting down rather than making any sort of effort to at least keep things ticking over. For all its faults at least the UK response paid attention to the idea that people and businesses need to get on with things.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790723#Comment_119790723

I dont think there's much point wasting everyones time with a review when there are a minority out there that know the outcome already? ("if you let these lads get away with what they did scot-free and without consequences, they'll just rinse and repeat")

Again, if you are expecting people to be fired/punished IF there is an outcome to that effect, you would be sadly misguided.