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Court summons questions - Vehicle owner allow learner driver use vehicle unaccompanied

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    #62
    randomstuff
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭randomstuff


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108791#Comment_121108791

    When the offence you are being prosecuted for doesn't make sense to the judge... What would you call that?



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    #63
    randomstuff
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭randomstuff


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108847#Comment_121108847

    ?? Sorry don't get it...



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    #64
    AmpMan
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭AmpMan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108791#Comment_121108791

    The pair of them should have spent a few nights in the joy for this heinous crime.



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    #65
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,630 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108929#Comment_121108929

    I’d call it a judge that failed to keep up with legislation.



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    #66
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108929#Comment_121108929

    Judicial incompetence

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #67
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,870 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    The Judge saw it for what it was, much ado about nothing, the woman had since passed her driving test, she was insured at the time, taxed and tested had received the required penalty points and paid the fine, he did what any sensible person would and dismissed the remainder.



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    #68
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Driving a vehicle without a valid licence is a serious offence, allowing a vehicle to be so used is also. So what if she passed her test since, if I was stopped with no insurance but bought a policy before the court date would that be grand too?

    BTW as she wasn't validly licensed then her insurance was invalid also

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #69
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,630 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110266#Comment_121110266

    She wasn't insured if she was driving unaccompanied. You don't get insurance cover to drive illegally. Driving within the law is a condition of your insurance.



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    #70
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,870 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110302#Comment_121110302

    Rubbish, this tripe gets trotted out all the time. Why wasn't she done for no insurance then? Because she was insured.



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    #71
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,870 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110826#Comment_121110826

    Rubbish absolute rubbish...



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    #72
    EuCitizen07
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭EuCitizen07


    Thanks for the prompt response.

    kindly advise me that how did you proceed?

    did you pleaded guilty and than put your points forwarded or you didn’t pleaded guilty and then responded accordingly.

    I am sorry for pushing it further but I am very concerned as any fine or conviction would have great impact on my livelihood.

    plaese explain as much as possible so I can act accordingly

    thanks



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    #73
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,951 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111166#Comment_121111166

    Rubbish. Read your policy, in conjunction with your certificate. Also, an innocent 3rd party being compensated by your insurer in the event of an accident does not mean you have cover in place



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    #74
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,197 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111166#Comment_121111166

    Interesting.

    • Allowing an unauthorised driver to operate your vehicle.

    I suspect most motor insurance policies have declarations that drivers agree to, including that the person driving has a valid license and is legally allowed to drive it.

    https://missquote.ie/blog/post/what-invalidates-car-insurance#



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    #75
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,660 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110266#Comment_121110266

    the 'ah sure it's grand' approach to road policing in ireland. the roads are barely policed as it is, and when a garda catches someone red handed, the judge allows it. and we wonder why the gardai are not fussed about roads policing.



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    #76
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111163#Comment_121111163

    Have a read of your policy sometime, it's there in black and white.

    Why wasn't she prosecuted? ask the Gardai and DPP but imo she should have been.

    People who do this are taking the piss, it needs to be stopped.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #77
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    She was charged for driving without a licence. That necessarily also involves driving without insurance, but it's not the practice to charge a second offence when both offences are constituted by exactly the same conduct. It's a principle of legality that it's unfair and oppressive to punish someone twice for the same conduct. If you were to be charged with two offences for the same conduct, you'd almost certainly only be convicted of one or, if convicted of both, only sentenced for one.

    If I deliberately run you over in my car because I want to cause you harm, that ticks all the boxes for the elements of offences of murder and manslaughter and causing death by dangerous driving. But I won't be convicted of all three offences; just of one. Same principle.



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    #78
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Seems odd that because you're committed an offence which usually has a lower punishment, you can't be charged with the other offence you committed which usually has a higher punishment

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #79
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,630 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112499#Comment_121112499

    There was some talk last week of changing that approach for drivers, and charging them with ALL offences that apply.



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    #80
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112499#Comment_121112499

    Driving without a licence and driving without insurance attract the same statutory penalty (a maximum of a €5000 fine and five penalty points).

    If the offences attract different penalties, you'll usually be charged with the one that attracts the higher sentence.



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    #81
    kirk.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭kirk.


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699003#Comment_119699003

    Is it a pending prosecution ?

    Insurers always ask that question anyhow



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    #82
    randomstuff
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭randomstuff


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111693#Comment_121111693

    I don't remember exactly what I plead, was quite a stressful time, with lots of emotions but... I think guilty. To quote another poster in this thread

    "The best advice to take here on the internet is to not take advice here on the internet."

    Please seek out a solicitor if you are unsure.



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    #83
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111959#Comment_121111959

    That is a prohibited condition and can't be used to avoid a claim from a third party. All that is required is that there is insurance in place to compensate third parties.



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    #84
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112614#Comment_121112614

    Both offences are usually charged if there is evidence they were committed. The judge will usually impose a fine on one and take the other into account.



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    #85
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112614#Comment_121112614

    In theory

    In practice driving without insurance seems to be treated more harshly (unless your lack of licence was due to disqualification)

    Seems some judges still don't treat LP violations seriously - but it is unlicensed driving. Just because it was tolerated here for decades didn't make it right.

    In this thread we've seen twice now drivers which were both unlicensed and uninsured but only charged with being unlicensed (and that not really being taken seriously enough, at that).

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #86
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112630#Comment_121112630

    They do. But the post you were replying to was about a case struck out, so prosecution failed.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #87
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,951 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112928#Comment_121112928

    The 3rd party has to be compensated by the insurer, due to legislation. However, this doesn't mean 'cover'is in place and indemnity provided. This gives the insurer the right to recover their outlay from the policyholder



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    #88
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113135#Comment_121113135

    As with nearly all offences, the legislation sets out a maximum penalty. The penalty that is actually applied in any particular case is decided by the court in the light of the particular circumstances of the case, and different penalties are applied in different cases.

    In general, the courts will treat more leniently —

    — driving without insurance, where the lack of insurance is a consequence of the (usually not premeditated) breach of a policy condition, as opposed to cases where you have simply failed to effect or renew insurance;

    — driving without a licence, where the lack of a licence is a consequence of the (usually not premeditated) breach of a licence condition, as opposed to cases where you have simply failed to get a licence, or have been disqualified.

    In the circumstances of this case, if the defendant had been charged with driving without insurance, I don't think they would got a more severe penalty. They had actually effected a policy and paid the premium, and that usually makes a big difference in sentencing.



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    #89
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121117152#Comment_121117152

    All that is required by law is that there is a policy in force by which an injured thrid party will be compensated. there is such a policy. The fact that there is a breach of contract by the policyholder is irrelevant. The injured party will be compensated, that is the whole point of it.



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    #90
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,951 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    The policy can be voided for breach of contract conditions, meaning no cover is in place. The 3rd party will be compensated, as I previously stated.



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