Court summons questions - Vehicle owner allow learner driver use vehicle unaccompanied

randomstuff

Hello Legal forum.

My partner drove unaccompanied as a learner. Garda stopped her, she got fined+points and car impounded (car was released on the day after payment and collection). This happened 10 months ago.

I got a letter this week for a court summons, alleged offence: Vehicle owner allow learner driver use vehicle unaccompanied.

Reading up on it, seems like max fine is 1000 euro for me as owner of car. Seems steep but I guess its the law...

Couple of general questions:

1. Do I require a solicitor? Would you recommend I get one? Reading up on solicitor fees, they seem to range from 200-300 per hour. How many hours should I budget for my case if I want one?
2. When in court, what are my options? I mean I assume I can plead guilty or not guilty? My plan is to plead guilty I think...
3. My partners name is misspelled on the court summons. I faintly remember reading somewhere that the name and details all have to match exactly, if not judge will throw the case out?
4. In the court summons, the garda says he will be out of the jurisdiction at the time and one of his colleagues will be present?
5. My wife has since passed the test, and gotten a full license - do you think I should present this? Is it relevant to the judge?

My plan so far is to bring following to court on the day:

1. Car vehicle registration
2. Car NCT
3. Car insurance proof
4. My driving license
5. Partners passed test result + license

Anything else I'm missing?

Thank you for any help/advice and answers you can provide.

Losty Dublin

If you are unsure of the Laws or if you plan to defend any of the charges on your summons for any reason then yes, you should consult a solicitor.

A wise option would be to call into a local practice and ask if they cover cases for the relevant local district court. If they can't help then they should be able to direct you to one who can give you a better appraisal of your case based on your summons along with the facts as they are and advise you if you will need representation on the day or not, and of the costs of same. A good solicitor could well be the difference between a strike out/acquittal or a hefty fine and perhaps more on the day.

Dr Turk Turkelton

I know I'd be raging if my wife took my car without telling me.

MV33

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677351#Comment_119677351

Ok but is that what happened?

I don’t see where’s its mentioned that she didn’t have permission.

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677411#Comment_119677411

By the time I made it to court with a thousand euro fine hanging over me that would be exactly what happened.

dennyk

With that sort of fine involved, it'd definitely be wise to consult a solicitor. A minor clerical error on the summons will not get it thrown out, and the fact that your partner has a license now is unlikely to be relevant; what matters is that she didn't have a full license at the time of the offence.

Gadgie

When was the summons applied for? You say this happened ten months ago, but you only got the summons now. The Gardai need to apply for the summons within six months of the alleged offence. A solicitor will check this for you.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677602#Comment_119677602

so instead of the OP being charged with letting a learner drive unaccompanied you think they should tell the guards she took it without permission and leave her open to a charge of theft?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677602#Comment_119677602

You'd end up with your wife being charged with taking a vehicle then. Rather more serious charge.

Squatman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679378#Comment_119679378

yea, agree with this, seems like a silly suggestion from the previous poster. No, the summons isnt voided due to minor clerical errrors, but as suggested i believe there is a statute of limitation on the summons. Not fully sure on this, but i had previously understood this to be 6 monthsl

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679399#Comment_119679399

They have 6 months to apply for the summons. Issuing and serving the summons will take some time after that.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679387#Comment_119679387

Well either she took it with the owner's permission or not. If it was with, the owner deserves what he gets, if not then she deserves what she gets, it's hardly going to be a stretch in Spike Island.

Hang on though - the only way this could be prosecuted one way or the other is if one spouse in effect testifies against the other - I thought that was something you could not be obliged to do.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677893#Comment_119677893

How much do you think a solicitor will charge?

The MAX fine is €1,000. That doesn't mean the OP will be fined that amount.

If this was me I would just plead guilty apologise and assure them it won't happen again and move on with my life

CreadanLady

Get a solicitor. Judges don't like people who represent themselves as they usually haven't a clue and hold things up with waffle and gibberish. Judges don't like their time being wasted by smart arses or amatuers.

Get a solicitor.

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679387#Comment_119679387

But she took it without his knowledge rather than without his permission.

If they are married surely they both own it.

She had already being charged and punished for her crime.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679999#Comment_119679999

there is only one owner of the vehicle.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679870#Comment_119679870

Turn up, say sorry, plead guilty. Dont waffle, no gibberish. The judge may take pity on them.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679999#Comment_119679999

But she took it without his knowledge rather than without his permission.

If you had no knowledge then you couldn't give permission, pretty much the same result.

If they are married surely they both own it.

A very common misunderstanding, marriage does not mean joint ownership of property. There is no doctrine of matremonail property in Irish law. Marriage simply gives an interest in property, not joint ownership.

She had already being charged and punished for her crime.

There separate offenses (dealing with separate people) and has nothing to do with the driver already being punished.

mondeoman72

Our house has a car in wifes name, another in my name, and a third in daughters name. We jump into whichever is out first. There is no asking involved. Is there an angle about wife jumps into "our car" so this arguement is mute?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680345#Comment_119680345

so you have an arrangement where you have given other permission to use each others cars at any time.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680345#Comment_119680345

The problem was she wasn't licensed to drive the car.

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680345#Comment_119680345

No it's not moot. Are you all insured on all three cars? Your wife would only be insured in the presence of a fully licensed driver with required licence length. You knowingly gave your wife access to your car, the question is whether you knew she would drive it alone.

TooTired123

If you hire a solicitor then whatever he or she saves you on the fine you’ll have to pay to him or her anyway so don’t bother.

Turn up looking smart apologize profusely and sincerely to the Court and the Garda for wasting everyone’s time, say absolutely nothing else unless someone asks you a question, pay whatever fine if any they give you. Go home draw a line under the whole thing and move on.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679428#Comment_119679428

Sorry if this is a dumb question but if the husband said she took the car without permission, can the Gardai charge the wife with taking the car without permission given that the 6 month timeframe for applying for a summons has long expired?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119697297#Comment_119697297

Well, I presume the guard asked the husband at the time if they had given consent. Otherwise why would they charge the husband with allowing a learner to drive unaccompanied?I

zg3409

Another possibility is case won't go ahead due to a busy day or gardai not showing up etc. It's quite common for cases relatively simple like this for gardai to be a no show and case never is rescheduled.

If you turn up in person judge tends to take into account you took a day off work etc. A solicitor can help sweeten the deal but it may not make financial sense. Try to get a solicitor that would be there at court on the day anyway. I paid about 250 euro fixed for a solicitor to represent me at a case and he asked me to not attend, in the end Garda never showed and that was it.

Plead guilty suck it up. I would be worried about insurance questions such as were you ever convicted of a motoring offence which may impact your car insurance. It's hard to deny it if a Garda has written you admitted it in his pocket book record.

Hotblack Desiato

If the Garda doesn't show up then really you should be compensated for your time and legal costs.

A garda writing things in their notebook is not a conviction no matter what the basis of it is, that's for our courts alone to decide so nothing to inform future insurers of unless there actually is a conviction.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699003#Comment_119699003

they have been summoned to court. a bit more than writing something in their notebook.

Hotblack Desiato

Thankfully we're not yet at the stage where suspicion is the same as guilt.

If the insurer wants to know if anyone was charged with an offence then that's the question they should be asking, but (a) that's none of their business if no conviction and (b) being found innocent of an offence but being punished anyway is not justice.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699042#Comment_119699042

what is the relevance of this to the thread?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679378#Comment_119679378

It wouldn't be theft if she believed she had permission, or believed that it would be given if requested given the circumstances

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699081#Comment_119699081

either she had consent or she didnt. In terms of the offence this is the exception

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

so in her defence she will say she had reasonable grounds for believing and when asked what those grounds were will say that her husband said it was it ok to take it whenever she wanted. that brings us back to a charge for the husband. one or other of the parties is guilty of an offence.

XsApollo

You Don’t need a solicitor, your partner either stole the car or you allowed her to use it , which is what you are being summonsed for.

a solictor will just give the judge a sob story about how you are working and you have kids or whatever and to take pity on you.

there is nothing to contest here, dress smart , show up and listen to the judge and answer humbly whatever questions the judge asks you, apologise that’s that.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699110#Comment_119699110

No. You never have had to talked to the owner, or even know them, to believe that you would be given permission depending on the circumstance

Would it apply in this case? Well it depend on the circumstances which have not been given. Regardless it seems that permission was given so it is a moot point for the OP. It might also be the case that the learner is named on the insurance etc. My post above was a general post related to theft

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699061#Comment_119699061

What is the relevance of what it is in response to about what may or may not be a in a garda's notebook?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700897#Comment_119700897

you've lost me.

Hotblack Desiato

Post 26. Feel free to take it up with that poster, they brought it up not me.

thegame983

Ok, it was a long time ago (I was 17) and I got summoned to court for urinating in public.

1. I went in with my dad, the judge called my name
2. I stood up, the judge looked at the charge sheet (or whatever its called) and knew all the details
3. The guard didn't turn up so the judge threw it out

I was looking at a fine max so not dissimilar to your situation. the whole process will take 2 minutes. You don't NEED a solicitor to stand up, say 'yes judge' and be fined (or not). There will be no arguments or much at all to say. It will be the easiest few hundred quid the solictor will make all day.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699110#Comment_119699110

I have to say I don’t agree. First of it’s a “beyond reasonable doubt” standard and secondly your suggestion that one or other must be guilty dismisses the possibility of confusion (instead of the much more likely collusion) between a husband and wife. She could legitimately say that she asked him while he could say that he was distracted and neither listened to the question or actively approved. Alternatively she (if ignorant of the law) might say that she reasonably believed that he would not have a problem with her using the car. The standard of proof to charge her with theft would be very high in inter-spousal circumstances.

Eire392

There is some shocking advice in this thread. Do not go in and think you're smart saying that you never gave permission and she took the car etc. Judge would most likely turn around and hit you with the max fine for trying to pull a fast one.

Realistically you'd get about a 200 euro fine if you go in and hold your hands up. Plenty of judges would just strike it out too tbh.

GM228

The best advice to take here on the internet is to not take advice here on the internet.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733645#Comment_119733645

Exactly. If pushed I'd say that she has obtained her full licence since it happened and it won't happen again. Very sorry etc etc...

Squatman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679428#Comment_119679428

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682393#Comment_119682393

think we are saying the same thing so?

893bet

I would in my arse plead guilty. Pure bullshit that charge is.

“I didn’t know she was gone it, I am always in the car with her”

Hotblack Desiato

It's not a bullshit charge.

The owner of any car has a responsibility to ensure that only licensed and insured drivers use it.

A learner permit isn't a licence.

NUTLEY BOY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679999#Comment_119679999

I think that the actual offence would be that of taking the vehicle without the consent of the owner or other lawful authority.

LINK Road Traffic Act, 1961, Section 112 (irishstatutebook.ie)

NUTLEY BOY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677602#Comment_119677602

Would that not be some class of perjury and a few other kindred little gems ?

Maxface

Had similar myself, got a solicitor and he got it struck out. Fee for solicitor was 200 EURO. Don't underestimate the role of a solicitor, they know the judges and how they operate. Always best to get one.

Hotblack Desiato

Where's the justice in getting a charge struck out when you committed the offence?

Justice system in this country is a farce.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785783#Comment_119785783

The justice system in this country (and in many others) is not concerned with whether you committed the offence so much as with whether you have been proven to have committed the offence. Presumption of innocence and all that.

If you think the presumption of innocence is a farce, well, that's your opinion. But at least face up to the fact that that is your opinion.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785783#Comment_119785783

Well having established that you don’t understand the justice system, your conclusion is of no consequence.