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Court summons questions - Vehicle owner allow learner driver use vehicle unaccompanied

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    #32
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699081#Comment_119699081

    either she had consent or she didnt. In terms of the offence this is the exception

    (5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

    so in her defence she will say she had reasonable grounds for believing and when asked what those grounds were will say that her husband said it was it ok to take it whenever she wanted. that brings us back to a charge for the husband. one or other of the parties is guilty of an offence.



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    #33
    XsApollo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    You Don’t need a solicitor, your partner either stole the car or you allowed her to use it , which is what you are being summonsed for.

    a solictor will just give the judge a sob story about how you are working and you have kids or whatever and to take pity on you.

    there is nothing to contest here, dress smart , show up and listen to the judge and answer humbly whatever questions the judge asks you, apologise that’s that.



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    #34
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,267 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699110#Comment_119699110


    No. You never have had to talked to the owner, or even know them, to believe that you would be given permission depending on the circumstance


    Would it apply in this case? Well it depend on the circumstances which have not been given. Regardless it seems that permission was given so it is a moot point for the OP. It might also be the case that the learner is named on the insurance etc. My post above was a general post related to theft



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    #35
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699061#Comment_119699061

    What is the relevance of what it is in response to about what may or may not be a in a garda's notebook?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #36
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700897#Comment_119700897

    you've lost me.



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    #37
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Post 26. Feel free to take it up with that poster, they brought it up not me.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #38
    thegame983
    Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭thegame983


    Ok, it was a long time ago (I was 17) and I got summoned to court for urinating in public.

    1. I went in with my dad, the judge called my name
    2. I stood up, the judge looked at the charge sheet (or whatever its called) and knew all the details
    3. The guard didn't turn up so the judge threw it out

    I was looking at a fine max so not dissimilar to your situation. the whole process will take 2 minutes. You don't NEED a solicitor to stand up, say 'yes judge' and be fined (or not). There will be no arguments or much at all to say. It will be the easiest few hundred quid the solictor will make all day.



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    #39
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,244 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699110#Comment_119699110

    I have to say I don’t agree. First of it’s a “beyond reasonable doubt” standard and secondly your suggestion that one or other must be guilty dismisses the possibility of confusion (instead of the much more likely collusion) between a husband and wife. She could legitimately say that she asked him while he could say that he was distracted and neither listened to the question or actively approved. Alternatively she (if ignorant of the law) might say that she reasonably believed that he would not have a problem with her using the car. The standard of proof to charge her with theft would be very high in inter-spousal circumstances.



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    #40
    Eire392
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Eire392


    There is some shocking advice in this thread. Do not go in and think you're smart saying that you never gave permission and she took the car etc. Judge would most likely turn around and hit you with the max fine for trying to pull a fast one.


    Realistically you'd get about a 200 euro fine if you go in and hold your hands up. Plenty of judges would just strike it out too tbh.



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    #41
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    The best advice to take here on the internet is to not take advice here on the internet.



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    #42
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,969 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733645#Comment_119733645

    Exactly. If pushed I'd say that she has obtained her full licence since it happened and it won't happen again. Very sorry etc etc...



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    #43
    Squatman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Squatman


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679428#Comment_119679428
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682393#Comment_119682393

    think we are saying the same thing so?



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    #44
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭893bet


    I would in my arse plead guilty. Pure bullshit that charge is.


    “I didn’t know she was gone it, I am always in the car with her”



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    #45
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's not a bullshit charge.

    The owner of any car has a responsibility to ensure that only licensed and insured drivers use it.

    A learner permit isn't a licence.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #46
    NUTLEY BOY
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679999#Comment_119679999


    I think that the actual offence would be that of taking the vehicle without the consent of the owner or other lawful authority.

    LINK Road Traffic Act, 1961, Section 112 (irishstatutebook.ie)



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    #47
    NUTLEY BOY
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677602#Comment_119677602

    Would that not be some class of perjury and a few other kindred little gems ?



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    #48
    Maxface
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭Maxface


    Had similar myself, got a solicitor and he got it struck out. Fee for solicitor was 200 EURO. Don't underestimate the role of a solicitor, they know the judges and how they operate. Always best to get one.



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    #49
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Where's the justice in getting a charge struck out when you committed the offence?

    Justice system in this country is a farce.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #50
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,332 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785783#Comment_119785783

    The justice system in this country (and in many others) is not concerned with whether you committed the offence so much as with whether you have been proven to have committed the offence. Presumption of innocence and all that.

    If you think the presumption of innocence is a farce, well, that's your opinion. But at least face up to the fact that that is your opinion.



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    #51
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,162 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785783#Comment_119785783

    Well having established that you don’t understand the justice system, your conclusion is of no consequence.



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    #52
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Two fairly pointless responses tbh

    1. Everything expressed on a discussion board is by definition an opinion.
    2. "If you find fault with it it's because you don't understand it." 🙄
    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #53
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,332 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795506#Comment_119795506

    I wasn't so much pointing out that "this is your opinion" as pointing out that "this is your opinion". You object to the presumption of innocence. You say that criminal justice systems which incorporate that presumption and require guilt to be, you know, actually proven with evidence are "a farce".

    That's a fairly extreme opinion. The significant word there is not "opinion"; it's "extreme".

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


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    #54
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    That's some quite bizarre fantastical nonsense you have constructed out of thin air there.

    What was being spoken about bears no relation to that at all. It's about people being advised to get a solicitor who "knows the judge" etc. to get away with an offence they admit they committed.

    It's barely a step above the gross abuse of the poor box we (used to?) have.

    "Sure motoring offences aren't really offences at all, if nobody got killed (this time) what's the harm really" is the unspoken attitude among the public. The post I was originally responding to described allowing someone to use a motor vehicle they are not licensed or insured to drive as a "bullshit charge". So we can have no surprises really when this attitude leads to causing death by dangerous driving being treated as trivial enough to justify nothing more than a €500 fine.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #55
    randomstuff
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭randomstuff


    Hi all, thank you for all the replies and tips.

    Had the court on Friday. Case was struck out after I showed the judge that my wife has acquired a full license since the offence.

    Didn't end up going for solicitor - rang around a few of them, gave them full details, and in all the cases, solicitors told me theres no chance of it getting struck out. Additionally they were going to charge me 400-750. I asked them what is the 'max' penalty/punishment that I can get from this charge... They all started talking about how 'its unlikely you will get points or loose license' ... When I reverted back to them, that I read the section of the RTA ( https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/35A/revised/en/html ) and that from my understanding the max penalty I can get is a 1k fine.... in all cases they panicked and said something along the lines of... 'oh thats why you hire a solicitor' 🙄

    Luckily I have some legal advice available from work - so got confirmation on above (that max fine is 1k) from an unbiased solicitor.

    The solicitors I rang, shot themselves in the foot really - if they would of told me that they can get it struck out for 500, I would of gladly paid it.

    It was an experience in the court - big variety of cases from some cyclist running a red light... to people being brought out by gardai, charged with no insurance/nct/tax but waiting on being sentenced for some other charge 20-25 years 😬

    Overall the buildup to it was most stressfull thing about this whole experience. I feel this sort of charge should be handled out of court with some flat fine and thats it.



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    #56
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,969 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840069#Comment_119840069

    I did say the judge would look in you favourably if you showed them the full licence, wouldn't happen again, yada yada yada. Glad it worked out for you.



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    #57
    Deusexmachina
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    Good result



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    #58
    EuCitizen07
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭EuCitizen07


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840069#Comment_119840069

    Kindly share what was your defence statement ? How did they serve you the summons? Did you get Fixed Charge Notice before you recieved the summons? I am in same situation as my partner was stoped driving unaccompained and she got pentalty points and fine was paid.car was relaesed after paying the relevent fees and producing required documents. Now As i was the owner of the vehicle for insurance purposes, DPP got the summons issued from the district court and need to appaer in the court for alleged offence of allowing the learner permit holder to drive unaccompained although in reality she suppose to go along with her friend from the neighbourhood(Full licence holder) to drop the kids to the birthday party nearby as i was unwell and minding the other childrens at home.I was under the impression she would be accompanied by the other person but due to the change in seating pattern she ended up being driving herself in car with the kid.rest is history.Please share your thoughts what i should do.Thanks



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    #59
    randomstuff
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭randomstuff


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108150#Comment_121108150

    Hi there. I let the judge talk it out really. He didn't even know this charge is possible - he asked the gardai what is this charge for? Since car had nct, tax and insurance was good. He also mentioned it could be a case of double jeopardy, since husband/wife is seen as 1 in court and we already paid the fine that my wife got + penalty points on her license. For my defense, I said that my wife has since gotten a full license, and then he struck it out.

    My wife got her fine and points in mail first, then few months later I got summons in mail under my name.

    Make sure to be prepared - dress smart, show courtesy to judge and have all docs prepared - the fine you paid for impound, the fine you paid for wifes FCN, and her penalty points, insurance detailing that you and her were insured, car was taxed, ncted etc.

    I think it's reasonable to argue that you, as owner of car, didn't know that she was driving alone as you said in your post... But if you get a good judge on the day I don't think you'll have to go there even. Most likely judge will be annoyed with the gardai for wasting their time 😅



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    #60
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    funny country when prosecuting someone for an offence they committed is wasting a judge's time.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #61
    jippo nolan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭jippo nolan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108707#Comment_121108707

    Did the Judge ask could he try on the Garda’s cap?



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